From a Pastel Fire Spotnose x Vanilla pairing. What do yall think this one is? I keep going back and forth on my ID on this one. And I can’t find any examples of any of the possible combos that look quite like this snake…
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Can you add a picture of the top of the head? It looks like Pastel Spotnose plus either vanilla or fire, but there is a little more pattern on the head than usual. Beautiful snake just the same.
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Right, and the amount of blushing between the alienheads is the other thing really throwing me off. I can’t seem to find an example with either of those things.
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For pairings that hit as a vanilla or fire, it’s best to list both. You can rarely ID them unless it’s from a Super, you get it shed tested, or breed it out to find the results.
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Shed test is a very good idea
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Thanks! For sure, all my listings make it clear they could be one or the other. Same as with my Mystic/Mojave pairings, although honestly I think people who work with those a lot do have fairly good accuracy telling them apart, especially in certain combos. Even in the cases I’m basically certain I always make sure any potential buyer knows the history and risk.
Same with het Pieds after sending in 8 sheds so far I have actually guessed every single one right. But you definitely can’t stake your name on it, or stake your season on it when testing is just 50 bucks!
To sidetrack even further, I’m actually convinced that almost all Black Eye Lucy morphs except for Fires bred from supers are probably going to be all mixed up. Like a huge portion will be mislabeled from years of breeding and someone thinking they could tell the difference and selling as one vs another and that mistake just keeps going down the chain. I’m also hopeful that when the testing comes out it’s going to become clearer how to make better ID guesses for each, and hopefully keep things from getting so messed up again.
Do you know when they think the Black Eye Lucy tests will be available? I definitely will be holding back and testing this snake.
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That’s a puzzle alright. Do you know the pairings that produced the Sire and Dame? Were there any possible genes that could have been overlooked in their identification, such as OD or YB?
It may be you’re simply going to have to accept the fact that you have an exceptional looking animal, and hold it back to see where you can take it. I would feel bad for you, but it’s difficult when the snake is so stunning.
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I’ll definitely be scratching my head. Once Black Eyed Lucy test comes out I might do some kind of larger panel test on her. I will need to test her for het Hypo anyways. (She’s also 100% het Clown Pied although I don’t think that will explain the result.)
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That would have been helpful to know up front. I think that is your answer. Based on my anecdotal experiences, Het for Pied can play with patterns almost like a mild case of Leopard, and Het for Clown, intensifies coloration and often blushing. If this is in fact double het, along with Pastel Spotnose and one iteration of BlkBel complex, it could easily account for the look.
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Interesting. Do you think het Hypo could account for this other thing I’m seeing in the clutch? Here’s pictures of a Spotnose and 2 snakes that should only be able to be Fire/Vanilla Spotnose but one looks very different from the other… Much more saturated / vibrant color and a pretty strong dorsal striping…
And here’s the parents including a hatchling pic of the father. I kind of questioned whether the mother has Vanilla (which offended the breeder when I asked because they were so certain.) But she also really doesn’t look like a normal Pied, and I have gotten offspring from her that are way brighter than typical that carry on into adulthood.
I didn’t get any Vanilla Creams in this clutch and now scrutinizing every baby I think there is probably some other gene in play instead unless it’s just the het Hypo coming through?
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What ever is happening is coming from the pied. The pied has more than Vanilla. The dorsal striping, the large patternless alien heads dripping down from the dorsal, and the blushing is the same thing in the animals that are in question. Do you know the combos that produced it? Has she ever been bred with a single gene codom or a normal that might have divulged clues of another gene? The Pied is the culprit for sure.
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Thanks for taking a close look at them for me!
Unfortunately the breeder of the Pied has never responded to my messages after the first time I questioned about it years ago. Despite the fact they still breed and sell ball pythons.
At this point I’m leaning that this mystery gene is instead of Vanilla. But I’ve been able to point out a few offspring in the past that definitely got whatever that gene is. Here’s some of those: Leopard, Black Head Leopard, Fire, Fire Spotnose, Firefly Spotnose, Trojan Pied (I have 4 Trojan Pieds now and this one is by far the best looking Pied I have ever seen - It’s 100% not just a Trojan Pied)
Thanks again btw. Normally when I see stuff like this posted on here 100% of the replies are “Looks like a regular [morph] to me. Variations. Everyone wants their snake to be something special, but yours is not.” Last time I seriously asked a similar question that was more or less the reception too. I spent the last 3 years feeling stupid but also finding ways to keep that weird phenotype going in my main project animals and this hatched out a few weeks ago (unrelated to this mystery gene):
So anyways I really appreciate ya taking the time to really look into something like this!
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Oh yeah, and here’s the “normals” from the clutch. I couldn’t say whether they’ve got this mystery gene or not, but it’s 50/50 that these are the single gene. (They are presumably identical twins.) They are a little lighter than most normals and the blushing is kind of nice?
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I am happy to have helped. Wish I could do more. I’m in agreement there is no Vanilla. I have produced a couple of Hypo Vanilla Pieds. Obviously I cannot give you a definitive answer, but when I look at the Pied, it leans in the direction of a gene called Harlequin. The problem with Harlequin is that it has always been a gene that the community has seemed tenuous about, like Blade. Everyone agrees there is something there, but always being able to isolate and identify it can be challenging. Harlequin tends to be more of an overall look. Here are a couple examples that were sold here on MM, not by me. If you query the gene and select “Any” for availability, you’ll see what I am talking about.
The commonality of the appearance is what I am seeing in your Pied, strong dorsal striping, cleaner alien heads, and extra blushing. Again, I am not saying it’s Harlequin, but there is clearly something going on with your pied. Keep making beautiful babies.
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The Pied looks Enchi IMO. the low white, the pattern & connecting eye-stripes…
that may be why the mystery baby is so banded?
Fire changes the color & PATTERN more than Vanilla… so i’m leaning toward Fire further opening those bands.
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Thanks for the suggestions! Definitely have a lot to keep watching out for. Whatever it is it does seem like some kind of morph based on how it’s showing up. I guess I have my next dinker to try to breed together in the future.
Here’s one more bonus of another snake I just remembered that possibly inherited this. If it’s anything like the Trojan Pied I should be able to tell better in another year. Trojan het Pied:
Definitely would like more suggestions on possible morphs to compare. Thanks yall!
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I’m going to say with being good at recognizing spotnose that you hit ever gene but maybe hot vanilla. Spotnose makes that nice bright dorsal you see too. And that little spot on the head and nose but so does fire. So inthibk fire depend the lighter contrast spotnose makes. And the purple head makes pastel of course. Vanilla you will only know by breeding. Great morph! Now breed to a leopard clown for some killer babies !
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