Allelic Morphs aka Complexes [Ball Pythons]

I think the list would be appropriate right here, as anything not synonymous would be allelic. So with that said, I’ve had suspicion the brite and sauce might be the same as lemonback and lori also the same as hra/green pastel. Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise? Do we feel we should just cut the crap and use the more common morphs? Just use Lesser instead of Butter, just use Candy instead of toffee, banana instead of cg, ect.? Also I havn’t even looked it up, whats jolt?

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Great write up, This should be a sticky topic for sure.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: Morphpedia: Ball Pythons: Honey

Alright, what updates do we need to make, its been a while.

This was a fun read, thanks guys.

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I mentioned this in the morphpedia thread, but amur, cryptic and clown have now been proven compatible, and since gizmo has been proven compatible with clown, that should mean the clown complex is now clown and cryptic/amur/gizmo, which to my knowledge are all the same gene.

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Has there been evidence that Lori is HRA? The supers have similar patterns but not the same color at all. The super Lori has a silvery blueish color while red axanthics are reddish colored. It seems obvious to me there different genes, but could be allelic. I just was wondering what evidence has there been been, like a RA to Super Lori pairing?

There are quite a few red axanthics that are very silvery

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Raven gene is just another line of chocolate or raven is allelic gene to chocolate?

Thanks for all the info. You all are awesome!!!

Chan

Someone mentioned today they were told that Black pastel and cinnamon are the same but diff lines like the rest?

I believe that’s true. Super raven looks identical to super chocolate.

That’s not true. Cinnamon and black pastel are similar morphs, but they also have huge differences that make them easy to tell apart

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Oh my, that is very wrong lol :joy:

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This is some great information!!

I think these are different. IMO, the red axanathic is extremely different from the super Lori. The single genes do look similar but the super is very different. Allelic maybe, but I don’t think the same at all.

Updated the list. Went through every morphepida article referenced and looked into every claim.

Biggest change is the the spider and spotnose complex being linked toogether by a few breeders. At this point someone need to prove these morphs are not allelic. Given the lethal nature of many of these combos, its understandable many of the combos can’t provide that proof. From what we have seen tho out of the less afflicted combos, they are allelic. Even our own @t_h_wyman cypress/woma links the complexes. We’re going to have to edit the morphpedia artcles to reflect this.

There are many claims of certian pairings proving the spotnose and spider complexes not being allelic, but attempting to look into them it appears to just be hearsay or probable misidentified animals. So before we make the multiple changes needed to reflect this elsewhere, anyone have any info on contradictions to this we should look into?

Raven was brought up, according to FB it is not allelic with spider complex.

The Trick/Hurricane/Blitz debate seems to be overwhelmingly on the they are all the same morph side.

I looked back into the Lori and Red Axanthic, the supers appear to have a variation of “red” to silver for both morphs and most would agree they are the same. Always open to evdience that says otherwise.

Other changes didn’t seem to have much debate around them.

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Lori lacks one of the more distinctive feature of hra (aka lace black back) which is the mostly empty dorsal that gives it that aka and they act differently in als combos from what ive seen. At the very least it is possible to accurately sort a pile of loris mixed in with hra which I think is a strong argument to list them separately as that would be impossible if they were exactly the same. The same task could be more difficult with blk pastel vs cinni depending on quality but one look at the dorsals with hra in the mix and its easy.

Ok i think i see what you are saying. If you look at hra posted on mm right now, there are some that have the solid unbroken dorsal i think you are referring to, but there are also some that have many holes in the dorsal, even more than some loris that are posted . That makes me believe that is a polygenetic trait and it would be reasonable to think that would also express in allelic combos as well. Lori is far less popular so it probably hasn’t seen the out crossing that hra has.

I’m not saying end story, just it reminds me of the time when all butters looked one way and all lessers looked another at one point, then there were exceptions, then they were the same. I think I’m seeing some hra exceptions.

Have we added that monsoon and moray are allelic at the very least, possibly the same gene?

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First I’ve heard of the moray, but at least there is enough info out there to make a call. Between ires’s story and kinovas work with both genes, which includes proving compatibility, until proven otherwise I can’t see any reason they wouldn’t be exactly the same. List updated

i’m wondering is maple if possibly allelic with ultramel and monarch as well. anyone have knowledge on this? I know it’s not being worked with very much…