And yet your photo of mom has her listed as firefly, not pastel poss fire…?
Just trying to clarify since it’s conflicting info.
If fire is there then that can be some of the issue in ID methinks.
It will be interesting if it ends up being something else going on, but there’s conflicting clutches that say allelic. Are you saying they just hit really good odds?
When i was putting in mom info on the breeding section it was not letting me put poss fire so i had to put fire. so yeah …
I am not saying anything. Take my results or don’t…
And i guess the other persons results were what a fluke …
But is there really???
Seems to me that there really isn’t enough info out there to make that claim.
The listings with pairings as Bongo combo x Spider Complex combo don’t prove them to be allelic or not. They were just to show how many of those combos were made by Bongo x Spider Complex pairings vs Bongo Spider Complex x Whatever pairings. I think the fact that majority of those that were made from Bongo x Spider complex pairings does lean the evidence towards them being allelic (especially since some of those that were from Bongo Spider Complex x Whatever pairings were mis-ID’d). It of course doesn’t officially prove or disprove it.
For the clown combos, while we don’t know for sure what bongo spider clowns look like, we do know what spider clowns look like, and those 2 animals do look like spider clown combos. And based on how bongo and spider interact with each other, those 2 animals were very reduced pattern than what we’d expect.
For the supposed bongo spider, it was clearly just a spider. We do know what bongo spider looks like and that animal did not at all resemble those. I unfortunately see a lot of spiders mis-ID’d as bongo spiders.
Honestly, the same could be said for your clutch. We don’t have enough solid evidence that’s what that combo would look like. And your pairing involved multiple genes that influence color and pattern which isn’t the best to get definite answers from. It’s completely possible that animal is just a super bongo combo, a bongo spotnose combo, or even a super bongo spotnose. We just don’t know for sure. There are too many genes at play, in my opinion, to make that a clear, definite clutch.
the pairing only involved bongo spotnose pastel, possibly fire and clown. I have made bongo spotnose clowns, pastel bongo clowns and hets of both. Also made a firely bongo clown.
Take from that what you may. I have shared my result and the result from another person. I just wanted to share my results and now i have and i am done.
It’s handwritten as ‘firefly’ on the index card in the photo…??
got me there congrats 
put it that way so it was the same as on the morphmarket breeding chart.
so i found this going thru the bongo facebook group from a Pastel Spotnose Bongo possible Fire het Clown x Clown There is a bongo spotnose fire clown in this group which shouldn’t be possible 
right??!!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1530498707243689/permalink/2875414709418742
The image of the convo you have posted is talking about bongo and spider from 2 people saying that bongo and spider are allelic.
The image from justin says chocolate/spotnose/wookie are suspected to connected not that they are.
Pairing from leopard hypo x od bongo spider yb: one animal is not bongo or spider .
I’m not on anyone’s side here, I think @wreckroomsnakes has some good data with their clutch, but I just want to say that I think one of those animals in that clutch is Mis-ID’d.
I 100% believe this animal has spider in it.
Agreed to me that looks to have spider and possibly bongo. Looks similar to some of the bongo spider combos I’ve made
Yes, but both pastel and fire can react strongly with bongo (and depending on who you ask, het clown may have an affect). We also don’t know that much about super bongo combos (most people don’t even agree on what it looks like). For all we know, super bongo spotnose doesn’t look that different from bongo spotnose. Genuine question, have you produced many super bongo combos? Do you have examples of supers with any of those genes? Morphmarket does not have many. Only 5 combos with pastel or super pastel, and 1 combo with fire.
Please don’t get me wrong, I honestly don’t care if Bongo is in the spider complex or not. I’m not fighting for it to be in that complex, I’m just sharing what I’ve found. I only want to make sure that we have enough, solid evidence that everyone agrees on before we say for sure it is or isn’t allelic.
I already said that I know that chart is outdated. I shared it because he does list Bongo in the spider complex, but again, I do not know what his evidence is to support that claim. Justin is seen as a reliable source, so I included that. If anyone wants to message him and ask him about it, please do! The more information we have the better.
I 100% agree, that animal definitely has spider in it. The remaining animal, however, I’m not convinced it doesn’t also have bongo. There aren’t many similar bongo leopard combos on mm, but there are a few animals that do look very similar. This one for example
I genuinely don’t believe we have enough solid evidence to support bongo being in the spider complex or not. At least not until those who have those clutches can provide the statics on their clutches and majority of people agree on their ID’s. In my opinion, the ideal pairing to prove it would be bongo spider complex paired to something simple (and not bongo or spider complex) and can provide numbers and photos and we agree on the IDs.
It’s better to get too much evidence beforehand instead of not having enough, declaring something as fact, and then needing to go back on it because turns out we were wrong. That would create so much confusion.
There is one animal does look like it could be spotnose bongo, but it looks fire bongo clown to me 
The rest of the clutch are only bongo or spotnose though. I want to see how the breeder ended up IDing them.
I’m not arguing bongo is or isn’t part of spider so there’s that. I’m saying bongo and spotnose aren’t allelic . Which is why I am saying looking at the chart it shows *suspected *
But Spider and Spotnose are allelic? Spotnose is under the Spider complex. So if bongo isn’t allelic with spotnose, then it also isn’t allelic with spider. And if bongo and spotnose are allelic, it’s allelic with spider.
I feel like a broken record, but I disagree with that ID haha I don’t think there’s spotnose in that animal
Similar looking animals that aren’t spotnose (with or without fire):
And bongo spotnose clown:
Really??? how do you prove a lethal combo is allelic.
100% exactly, that is the key here. spotnose is UNDER the spider complex and not included in, which means it has not included in the spider complex and only SUSPECTED to be apart of it.
Ok i am just to tired to continue with this discussion.
Chocolate and spotnose have been proven allelic, and so have chocolate and spider. Therefore they’re all allelic. Chocolate spiders can have very severe wobble but aren’t lethal combos 
so a good combo to prove if bongo and spider are allelic is anything known to be allelic with spotnose, since they’ve now been proven allelic with chocolate
I’m a little confused about why this is being questioned. It’s already been discussed and proven in this thread that chocolate and Spotnose are allelic, as are wookie and Spotnose, and therefore chocolate, spotnose, and wookie are all confirmed allelic, not suspected at this point. Justin proved chocolate and Spotnose and chocolate and wookie last year, if I remember correctly.
Spotnose, chocolate, wookie, and cypress are all confirmed part of spider complex.
Whether bongo is allelic with spider complex is something I haven’t done much research in so can’t speak to, but the others are all proven allelic.
This pairing is a stamp in favor of bongo/spider being allelic. A couple of the hatchlings weren’t labeled as spider or bongo, but people mis-ID snakes all the time. The bottom listed OD leopard het hypo is very obviously also spider, and the other OD leopard looks pretty clearly bongo to me, in which case you’d have 2 spiders, 3 bongos, no spider bongos, and no normals - all consistent with an allelic pairing.
Spotnose is IN the spider complex. It’s listed under the complex name along with all of the other confirmed genes.
None of this was in question…
to be allelic it can only produce either bongo or spider…
Bongo leopards have a very elongated patten
You just questioned it in your last post.
Which is why I just wanted to clarify that they are not suspected to be part of the complex, they are proven and confirmed part of the complex.
Yes, and that’s exactly what happened. 5 hatchlings in the clutch, and all 5 were either bongo OR spider. That would indicate they are in fact allelic. Just because the animals weren’t listed as spider or bongo doesn’t mean they weren’t - they were just mis IDed. All 5 are very clearly either spider or bongo regardless of what the breeder IDs say
