i’m wondering is maple if possibly allelic with ultramel and monarch as well. anyone have knowledge on this? I know it’s not being worked with very much…
Corey woods would be the one to ask, last time he put out info on it, there was no mention of trying to prove compatibility, but doesn’t mean he isn’t trying.
I’m not sure if this belongs here or in the morph issues thread, but has anyone bred HGW X spider and ended up with surviving offspring? I see that “wannabee” (hgw spider pastel) is listed as a combo under HGW, but given that super HGW and super spider are both lethal, I would be shocked if a HGW spider combo animal was even alive, much less healthy without a severe wobble. Has anyone done this pairing, or bred a labeled HGW spider and successfully produced single gene of both to prove those animals weren’t mislabeled?
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I spent years tracking down every alleged HGW x Spider I could find and every single one of them, when bred out, proved to be only Spider
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Thank you for the insight! That’s what I suspected. I have seen a few listed here on MM over the years but they didn’t even look like both genes to me, just a wacky example of the single genes - and I just would be really surprised if spider hgw combo animals even successfully hatched given the proven lethal nature of both genes on their own in homozygous. I had someone in the WOBP FB group (I think?) yesterday claim their friend had produced a hgw spider yb animal that had little to no wobble at all, but they admitted they never proved it out and couldn’t provide a picture of the animal either. Not saying it’s impossible, I guess, but I was very surprised to see it listed and talked about as a supposedly healthy combo.
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With both morphs having a lethal homozygous form, I can pretty much guarantee the combos are also lethal
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Since all of these are in the Spider complex, it would be unwise to breed any of these together ?
Spider Complex
- Black Head
- Champagne
- Chocolate
- Cypress
- Hidden Gene Woma
- Sable
- Spider
- Spotnose
- Woma
- Wookie
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I guess that depends on your definition of “unwise”
BlackheadSpiders do not really have any major issues. Neither do BHChamp, BHHGW, and BHWoma if the reports I am hearing back are accurate. I would venture to say that Any in combo with BH will be fine
Morphs in this group that have viable homozygous forms are also probably safe as a compound heterozygous would likely not display issues worse than the most extreme of the two homozygous (e.g., SuperSpot can have slight neuro and SuperCypress can have slight neuro so CypressSpot could have slight neuro but would be unlikely to have catastrophic neuro)
The only real issues would come from pairing those with a lethal homozygous (Champ, HGW, Spider, Woma) with those with homozygous forms that have known issues. I can speak from personal experience that CypressWoma are have more neuro behaviour than just Woma - closer to the bell curve for Spider behaviour than Woma. And I know of numerous reports that ChampSable are very weak overall and often fail to thrive.
And, obviously, you should avoid pairing those with a lethal homozygous (Champ, HGW, Spider, Woma) to another morph with a lethal homozygous
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I couldn’t think of another word to use other than unwise at the time. LOL!
I knew spider to spider was a definite NO, but didn’t know for sure about the others. Thank you for clarifying that for me.
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I just want to add there are reports of Super Blackheads having a slight neuro. Which I always found interesting given their heterozygous combos seem to be fine.
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I have heard these reports as well. Part of me suspects that the reason people are not reporting anything in the heterozygous combos is because they are just accepting the “Blackhead fixes neuro in Spider” line and not taking the time to really observe the animals to see if they actually have slight tics as well
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You have got to be freaking kidding me! Are there breeders on here that have super black heads? Can you please take a moment to view your animals and post your observations. How long has this combo been around…about 15 freaking years, if it’s true you think it would be common knowledge by now. Sorry, I’m a little flabbergasted after reading this post. I’m not buying it until I hear of first hand accounts.
Actually if I’m lucky I might have some firsthand experience this year. Black head pastel x black head pastel locked a couple of times the last few months.
Maybe that’s why I’m flabbergasted, weird timing on reading this thread.
If I remember correctly I watched a video from JKR yesterday. And He was showing a Super Blackhead het Ultramel. Very pretty animal and I didn’t see a wobble in him while Justin was holding him. It was an adult male I believe.
I will have to go back on Youtube and find it.
There are people out there that still believe that there are Spiders without any wobble despite that morph being in the hobby for nearly three decades. People only see things when they actually take the time to watch their animals more than just the two minutes the tub is open to throw in a feeder or swap out some paper
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The breeder that first reported it in his animals said it is subtle and not as persistent in them. So if Justin had had that animal out for a while before it was actually filmed then it might have mellowed enough to not be displaying it. Also possible that the motion of the snake while being handled might be enough to mask/mistake the subtle wobble for regular handling behaviour
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I could handle my spider gal for a good 3-5 minutes before she wobbles. And she’s a super defensive gal.
A calmer demeanor wobble gene one may only show while excited in food mode or when put under stress. Or may only have a bit of a head tilt while at rest.
30 seconds of footage made to show off an animal is not really enough to make a judgement. Justin’s animals are beautiful though.
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So, I’ve been very vocal here about not working with neuro genes. I do have one blackhead in my collection, and in the single gene I’ve never noticed any issues in her - not even when striking or feeding, no tilt, no minor balance issues, etc. that I’ve ever noticed, and I pay pretty close attention because of my decision not to work with the genes that do have neuro symptoms. I have some breeders friends who also have not observed issues in the single gene, only in the super. Would definitely like to see more on the super, though, and of course more on the single gene from those who work with it more than I do. If single were ever proven to consistently have minor wobble, I would remove it from my collection, even though it’s one of my favorite genes.
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As with Cypress and Spotnose, the issue has never been reported with the single gene, only with the homozygous and, in some cases, with the compound heterozygous
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