They can, yes. But I’m sure you’re aware there is often variation. Here’s a bongo leopard that looks nearly identical.
1 Like
Nope, no where did i question chocolate/spotnose/wookie being allelic.
the whole issue here is bongo and spotnose… nothing more. Just bongo and spotnose.
Nevermind that at least 3 clutchs so far have shown them not to be allelic…
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you meant. We can all agree that spider, spotnose, wookie, chocolate, and cypress are allelic, yes? So the only question left is whether bongo is allelic to any of them, because if it’s allelic to any one of those genes that automatically makes it allelic to all the others and part of the spider complex.
That clutch you posted proving spider and bongo aren’t allelic actually lends more credibility to the probability that they are allelic. And if spider and bongo are allelic, then bongo and Spotnose are allelic.
It should at the very least remain on the watchlist.
3 Likes
I am going to butt in and say that this is really fun to read and really interesting. Sorry just thought I would throw that in 
3 Likes
That chart is outdated (which I already added that disclaimer in my original post). It was last updated in August of 2021. It’s been since proven that spotnose is apart of the spider complex. I only shared that chart because bongo is listed under the spider complex for some reason.
You questioned whether spotnose and spider are allelic, which they are. It has been confirmed multiple times. The evidence of that is in this thread. The first post of his thread even lists spotnose (and chocolate and wookie) under the spider complex, meaning they are allelic. Saying a morph is under a certain complex means they are in that complex. You can’t be under a complex but not allelic to it, that doesn’t mean anything. So questioning whether bongo is in the spider complex is the same as questioning whether bongo is allelic with spotnose.
But this animal has OD in it which can reduce the pattern and band it. There aren’t many bongo leopard combos and there aren’t any bongo OD leopard combos we can compare it to, but there is a bongo leopard that looks very similar to the one with OD. And there is a lot of variation in all of those morphs. Looking at that clutch, it doesn’t seem like their bongo expression is particularly strong, which could explain why that animal doesn’t have the typical bongo leopard pattern we’ve seen.
None of the clutches you’ve provided proves that they aren’t allelic. We can’t guarantee your clutch is ID’d correctly without doing breeding trials. The other clown clutch you provided has every single hatchling as being bongo OR spotnose, none with both and none with neither. And the spider bongo clutch has 1 spider incorrectly ID’d as not a spider and the remaining animal is likely a bongo.
Breeders make mistakes. Sometimes we can’t ID animals 100% accurately all the time. That’s okay. We try our best to ID them based on previously produced animals. We do the best we can with the information we have. In this case, there really aren’t a lot of super bongo combos to compare them to. We can compare them to similar combos, but we don’t even fully understand the super yet.
3 Likes
Nope once again This is only about spotnose and bongo
Really 
Yes actually I did . The clutch that was in the first post from the other person i mentioned states very clearly that it was an an 8 egg clutch with bongo Batman’s and ones WITHOUT BONGO OR SPOTNOSE.
You literally questioned it right here. If something is apart of a complex, they’re allelic. Spotnose is included in the Spider Complex. Spotnose is under the Spider complex. Spotnose is apart of the Spider Complex. It all means the same thing. If we’re questioning whether Bongo and Spotnose are allelic, then we’re also questioning whether Bongo is in the Spider Complex because we know Spotnose is in the Spider Complex.
In case I’m severely misunderstanding, can you explain what you mean?
This is the clutch you mean? Bongo Ball Pythons | Latest Bongo clutch results, Pastel Spotnose Bongo possible Fire het Clown x Clown 🙂 | Facebook
Pastel Spotnose Bongo possible Fire het Clown x Clown
There are 9 babies (and no batmans, unless you just mean spotnose clown? Batman has leopard too). I highlighted all the ones with spotnose in orange, and all the ones with bongo in blue (and put the original next to it). I also numbered them all so you can clearly point out which ones you disagree with. There aren’t any babies with both bongo and spotnose, and there aren’t any with neither. Which one(s) do you think have both bongo and spotnose, and which one(s) do you think have neither?
I just asked Justin/Summer for more information on Bongo possibly being under the Spider Complex. I will share what they said as soon as I get a response!
1 Like
Nope
This one . Which I corrected cause I wrote the wrong thing. This is the message they sent me Just to let you know, I proved spotnose and bongo not allelic. I bred that male to a banana, leopard Pastel Clown, and hit a bongo Batman.
8 eggs. 1.0 Bongo Batman and 0.1 Batman. No other Bongo or Spotnose.
I am not going to bother to tell you what I think those are there is zero point to do so. You got it alll figured out and I am well aware what is in a Batman but thanks for the info 
I’m not sure how many times or ways to say this but I’m not arguing if bongo is or isn’t in the spider complex. Only if bongo and spotnose are allelic or not. But at this point I could truly careless
My apologies! That was the only similar clutch with photos, so I assumed it was that one.
Do you have photos of the clutch, or know who produced them so I can track them down and share them here? I (and I’m sure others) would love to see them. The more evidence we have the better 
I really do not mean to insult you, I’m just trying to clarify to prevent any misunderstandings.
But what’s what I’m trying to explain. If bongo and spotnose aren’t allelic, then bongo and spider also aren’t allelic. If bongo and spotnose are allelic, then bongo and spider are allelic. We know what bongo and spotnose are allelic to each other, therefore bongo would be allelic to both or neither. It’s impossible for it to be allelic to spider and not spotnose. So saying bongo is or isn’t in the spider complex is the same thing as saying bongo is or isn’t allelic to spotnose. I’m genuinely confused by your thought process. Are you saying that bongo could be allelic to spider and not spotnose?
3 Likes
I’m really confused by this. You keep saying that you’re not questioning if bongo and spider are allelic, just bongo and spotnose. But you have been presented with information showing that spider and spotnose are allelic, which would mean if bongo is allelic with spider it’s also allelic with spotnose, and continue to say that you’re not talking about spider? Spider being allelic with bongo is vital information to this conversation. Am I misunderstanding?
3 Likes
Both of those things are the same thing. I’m not sure where the confusion is here. You’re arguing if bongo and Spotnose are allelic or not, which means that at the same time, in the same breath, you are arguing if bongo is in the spider complex or not. It’s the same question. If bongo and Spotnose are allelic, then bongo IS part of the spider complex. If bongo and Spotnose are not allelic, then bongo IS NOT part of the spider complex. In asking whether bongo and Spotnose are allelic you are also asking whether bongo is in the spider complex. Those are the same exact question, because Spotnose is part of the Spider complex, so if bongo is allelic to Spotnose then it is also allelic to spider. This is the basic crux of complexes and allelic genes. So I’m confused about where you’re identifying a difference between the statements.
3 Likes
It’s worth pointing out that with newer gene combinations like this there is no way to definitively ID animals these particular combinations have never been seen or have only been produced a handful of times. So with that in mind, you keep saying that you and/or others have proven Spotnose and bongo not allelic, but unless you have done that pairing, produced an animal you believe to disprove that, grown that animal up, and then proven through breeding trials with that particular animal that it is the genes you thought it was - it’s not proven, it’s guesswork. Which is fine, but we can’t hinge allelic determinations on guesswork.
So what happens now is one of those animals needs to be grown up and paired to multiple other animals, and the results of all of those pairings posted, and then we can have enough evidence to make a determination about whether or not the two genes are allelic. People mis-ID animals all the time, so just because a breeder thinks they have a certain combination and labels it as such doesn’t mean it is actually that genetic combination.
I also asked a while ago in this thread about hidden gene woma and spider, because there are multiple animals that have been listed on MorphMarket over the years as Spider HGW and yet as far as I knew that was a lethal combo, and here @t_h_wyman said that he spent years tracking them down and breeding them out, and all proved to be either HGW or spider, but never both, because that is a lethal combo. The breeders of those animals mis-IDed them.
So having an animal that a breeder thinks is super bongo Spotnose or super Spotnose bongo, or an offspring produced from a Spotnose bongo that is both - or in this case, a bongo Batman produced from a bongo spotnose - doesn’t mean anything for allelic determination until the animal in question is grown up, bred out, and proven through multiple clutches & breeding trials to be the genes it was labeled as. Lots of snakes were labeled as super chocolate Spotnose, for instance, until Justin’s breeding trials proved them to be allelic, so we all know now that those animals were mis-IDed because those IDs aren’t possible.
Unfortunately, lots of people don’t know how to properly ID genes that they work with, or their thinking is limited by the genes they believe to be in the pairing, or lots of other things. I come across animals every day listed here on MM that are quite obviously not the genes they’re labeled as, or include very common genes like pastel, enchi, etc. which the breeder didn’t ID. It’s understandable that there would be even more ID confusion with genes that are not as common like bongo, and when there are a lot of other incomplete dominants or recessives in the mix of a pairing.
4 Likes
That is exactly what I’ve been trying to say! Thank you for putting it into better words!
Whether I think Wreckroomsnakes’ ID’s (or other examples given) are accurate or not is completely irrelevant. We literally can’t prove those animals ID’s without breeding trails (or shed tests once the applicable genes come out). There just isn’t enough information to properly ID them. And the information we do have for if they’re allelic or not is conflicting. I really do not believe we have enough information to say one way or another, which is why I’m advocating for the change in the thread to be reverted.
I also want to reiterate that I’m not arguing for it to be in the Spider Complex (honestly, for my own personal gain, I shouldn’t want it to be in the Spider Complex). I’m literally just trying to correct incorrect information, show that there isn’t enough information, and the information we do have is conflicting. I do not care if it ends up being allelic or not, I just want accurate information before we make final decisions that affect the whole community.
If I’ve said anything that is incorrect, please correct me! I do not mind being wrong and I want to be corrected if I’ve said anything wrong. I’m always wanting to learn. Ball Pythons are a special interest for me, so I want to learn as much about them as I can. I just want to share the information I know and help others!
And I do apologize if I’ve come across as aggressive, insulting, or anything else negative. That really is not my intention. I know I can come across as blunt sometimes (I’m autistic), but I really try my best to keep discussions light and friendly. I genuinely want to have friendly discussions with others, even if our views differ. I just love these animals so much and can get really passionate about them! 
5 Likes
This thread is wild for someone who still knows next to nothing about the relationships between morphs. I definitely am not here for heated discourse, but hearing you all go through the specifics of this discussion brings a lot of insight not only into the relationship of morphs to each other, but how unclear and subject to change all of this very much is. A part of the reason that i struggle to learn this stuff is because it changes so quickly i can’t keep up. Like trying to hop on a train going through the station ad 30 miles per hour. But it seems that is just the nature of the beast. I am learning a lot, hopefully one day I’ll be able to catch on finally and join the discussions myself.
3 Likes
Hopefully if nothing else you’ve learned a little something! Genetics can definitely be hard, and with ball pythons having so many morphs (many of which are likely just different “lines” of the same gene, and many of which are connected by allelic complex to other genes) it’s extra complicated. I know I at least can say I’m always super happy to help explain genetics, ID morphs, etc. so if you ever have any questions, don’t hesitate to reach out individually!
As for the rest, yes, I totally agree with Phantom. I personally would love for bongo to not be in the spider complex because I don’t work with most of those genes due to the health & QOL concerns, so I’d much prefer it be proven not allelic. But those long-term breeding trials where we do the pairings, grow multiple animals up, breed them out multiple times, and post the results haven’t happened yet, so for the time being I think it definitely needs to remain on the watchlist for spider complex. Hopefully in the near future we will have some of those answers, but making a determination too early based on too little evidence would be way more confusing for the hobby in the long run. Since there’s still so much conflicting information as to whether it is or isn’t allelic to spotnose/spider/anything else in the spider complex, I think it’s definitely better to err on the side of caution and keep it on the watchlist until those full breeding trials have been done, preferably with results from multiple breeders and multiple pairings.
4 Likes
The other option for proving these days would be to amass genetic samples from Bongo animals and send them to RGI. 20 - 40 sheds and they could locate the gene and definitively test what the controversial offspring are carrying.
Or even possibly directly see whether it’s on the same allele as another known spider complex gene.
2 Likes
Could definitely do this too, absolutely. But given how much RGI has their work cut out for them with DG right now and how many other genes have been requested that they’re trying to pinpoint, it could well be years before they’re able to give a definitive answer either. We may as well keep trying to work on it the old fashioned way in the meantime! 
I think you’re gonna be surprised at how fast the genetic testing is going to expand. I think they’re hoping to release something like 15 new tests this year. They can work tons of gene tests in parallel. The main challenge that makes it take long sounds like collecting enough sheds.
They replied, but unfortunately we still don’t have a definite answer. This is their reply:
Hey, it’s been a little over a year I think since we updated that chart. I forget exactly where we got the data from for that particular Morph. I have not tested it personally that’s just feedback we got awhile compiling the data.
2 Likes