And I guarantee if they can’t sell what they are producing at an acceptable price fast enough, they are adjusting their business model, which probably includes reducing production.
In the long run, a surplus (or shortage) is a short term anomaly that will go away as the market self-adjusts.
All I’m saying is IF there is an over saturation it will correct itself. Maybe not as fast as some of us want, but it will correct itself.
The problem here is that more than likely the “nothing special/single gene/normals/etc surplus unsellable animals are being sold off to big box pet store chains.
When I was working at Petsmart, we never knew what morph of anything we were getting until we opened the FedEx boxes….
This could be an easy out for the big time breeders…….
No, they’re not, I promise you. This is why wholesale exists and pet stores are flooded with their surplus, as @caron noted. If this was a “short-term anomaly” it would have resolved itself already. This is not an “if” scenario, it’s a fact that the market is oversaturated, and has been for some time. It has just been ignored by those perpetuating the issue.
Tbh this thread has just reminded me that it’d be super cool if we had access to analytics of MM, i.e. how long it takes from listing to sale on average, number of animals listed per year per species, listing to sale ratio, things like that to give us as breeders a better overall idea of the online market.
Well they technically have a home.
I feel that if you breed them, you better plan on feeding them for their lifespan because they may not sell. In my home, every single animal has a home forever here. When I sell a baby, i tell them do not call a rescue, call me. I will take back what i produce for the life of the reptile. Rescues are over run, so if i can be responsible on my part, in taking back animals i bred if the new owners couldn’t care for it anymore, i think i am doing my part in keeping my animals out of already over-run rescues. I personally do not rescue in general though, i dont have the space or financial abilities or i would run a true rescue also.
Actually yes for normals. I sell out of normals fast at expos.
It gets crazier the further you look into things. While MorphMarket lists founders as being around since 2017, the records go back to 2014.
Since 2014, the total number of BPs on MM either sold or currently for sale/on hold is 332,605 in the US alone, 399,663 worldwide. This doesn’t include any animals or breeders whose listings or accounts were deleted. Some of the biggest breeders are also those who have been here the longest, and have several thousand animals apiece sold since they began listing. Also keep in mind many of these breeders have their own websites they sell through, so we may not even get the full picture.
The reason for this for every species is solely because normals are often the lowest priced animals and thus the way to get your foot in the door on a budget. They’re also the ones most likely to be discarded without a thought or neglected when the novelty wears off as they’re considered “cheap”.
I love that you’re willing to take back any animal you’ve produced, but I’m going to be real about it: owners almost never return an animal to a breeder, even if there’s a contract to do so. This is even more likely to be the case for any animal not purchased locally, because most people would rather sell/surrender an animal nearby than go through the effort (and monetary requirement, unless you’re willing to absorb the costs) of shipping back to the breeder who produced it.
I get what you are saying from an economic perspective. The market will adjust either with a reduction in price or in a reduction of inventory. That is partially why I want no part of this market right now. Anyone jumping in today is likely jumping into a bubble that is about to pop.
To me the issue isn’t an economic one. We are r talking about widgets. They can sit in a box somewhere until there are buyers. We are talking about living animals and the ethics of producing them in the current situation.
While I get what you are saying, it seems to me we are having different conversations
I used to visit and sometimes purchase from Kingsnake Classifieds. There was and I am sure still is page after page after page of ball pythons listed…….
So there is another example of over saturation…….on another website……
Man I wish all breeders thought this way.
Yes, this is a perfect example of a perfect world………
But someday……… 
I feel like this kind of attitude is becoming more common, at least with the newer breeder generations. I’d love to see more people adopt it as a way of thinking about either breeding or keeping. Ethical production should really always include a plan for the life of the animal first, with the thought of a sale only after.
Amen.
I wish more people were introduced to the hobby the right way. We’d have no “disposable pets”
I understand they rarely do, but i let them know to contact me before calling a rescue. I cant control what they actually do.
I am just now starting to increase my super co doms, so i wont get normals anymore thankfully. I so far have been very lucky with not getting a bunch either. This last two clutches, only 2, and one Het pied. So out of 11 eggs, only 2 true normals. 1 looks normal but is a het pied.
I absolutely appreciate that you even offer this. I wish more people would put aside their issues with admitting failure and do what’s best for the animal more often. Especially in a species that doesn’t have the same appeal and support rescue network as something like dogs or cats.
Been waiting quite a long time for this discussion to come up but didn’t want to be the one to open up. Thank you for talking about this.
Honestly, what’s sad when these conversations get brought up is that I lose a little bit more motivation to breed this season. It definitely makes me reconsider the path I’m pursuing. Which sucks because they’re the species that got me into the hobby, and breeding in general. But at the same time, I don’t want to be part of the problem. I’ll likely end up selling off most of my collection apart from a few females and a male or two, and looking to a different species.
It’s a shame that responsible, ethical small breeders are the ones most having to adjust. I was only planning to have four clutches at most this year, but I changed one pairing based on the market and cancelled one entirely. I’m still really excited about my remaining ones, but realistically too many big breeders are producing too many animals for the market to correct itself, especially when we’re talking about an economy based around living, breathing beings. I also tell customers that I will take an animal back in and I have done it twice now, but it only helps so much.
I am also hoping to work with sarasinorum geckos and African house snakes, for species that are not so oversaturated. But I love BPs, they’re what got me interested in snakes a decade ago, and it’s very sad to think about scaling down projects even from the tiny number I already have.
Actually @inspirationexotics, in addition to the sad state of affairs of the ball python market, the sad state of affairs of the economy in general is bound to be affecting the reptile industry. I am sure sales are down across the board. That plus the pandemic punched everybody in the gut………