I’m in the same boat. They say it works. My eyes are skeptical but I’m going to give it a go at least for one season. 2021 baby. Finally making it to the first clutches
2 Likes
Many people overestimate their needs for cage size. Some of my 3000g females are comfortable in a 5040 rack but stress out in a 7030 rack. They all have their individual quirks and they’ll tell you what they want. I’ve bred many large girls in 28qt tubs because that is what they wanted. Just my experience.
5 Likes
In fact ball pythons do not spend their entire lives in holes or termite mounds, at least not everywhere on the African continent. Here is a great video with actual research, and a realistic assessment of how they live in the wild. I know ours have been captive bred sometimes over generations, and have their food handed to them, but no harm in giving them enrichment anyway
5 Likes
Enrichment is about more than your snake not being bored, it is to keep it healthy and thriving, not just living to breed and eat. Here is a thread on what seems to be happening to older BPs, and potentially other snakes kept the same way. Most snakes should have the option to climb on some stuff, as the exercise does help them stay healthy with good muscles.
4 Likes
It’s an interesting post you reference but to be fair it’s not really even about enrichment…it’s just someone taking a guess at a connection with UVB deficiency and arthritis in older snakes.
It’s not proof of anything, definitely not proving the necessity of “enrichment.”
2 Likes
Enrichment isn’t just a “human” thing that we’ve made up, it’s important to allow animals to perform species specific behavior in captivity for their health and well being. An animal that has proper enrichment will be healthier and less stressed, which can lead to better eating and more successful breeding. Just because an animal is alive and existing living in a rack system on paper doesn’t mean that’s the ideal environment for it. Natural ball python behaviors include burrowing, climbing and hiding, and an ideal setup for them should include these elements.
So many breeders try to justify keeping a minimalistic enclosure by claiming that ball pythons do best in this scenario when in reality it often boils down to cost and convenience. Let’s not confuse adequate with ideal.
Even my lab mice are required to have enrichment in their cages in accordance with AAALAC guidelines, and we’re talking about animals that have very short lifespans. I certainly wouldn’t keep my breeding animals at a lower standard of care than is recommended for laboratory animals (even Zebrafish are supposed to have enrichment). It doesn’t have to be anything crazy, but even providing ball pythons with substrate, and various sizes of hides allows them to interact with their environment in in a way that is more similar to their natural behavior.
6 Likes
Arthritis can be prevented/helped through regular exercise and stretching. If you read through the thread you will see some mention that. Enrichment should be allowed purely for the sake of climbing/exercise. That way you aren’t left with a couch potato of a snake with back problems from never being allowed to properly use their muscles the way they should be. Exposure to UVB definitely wouldn’t hurt anything, and even some d3 supplements would be good occasionally.
2 Likes
All speculation in the thread. One mention of I have a friend who thinks such and such but that’s not proof…that’s someone’s opinion. And the original post had nothing to do with it.
Not saying it’s a bad opinion, it may have merit but again. Nothing in that thread proves anything about enrichment.
Here is a good little video on BPs that combines the field research of a few people and the experience of many keepers. BPs are good at holding onto you like semi arboreal snakes such as Eastern rat snakes. I have both snakes and my BPs do just as good at holding onto me as my rat snake. While truly terrestrial species like blood pythons need to be supported. Helps prove that they should be allowed at least rocks to climb on, as they do much more than that in the wild. The reason I take my BPs and handle them regularly is so they can get some good exercise, and my male BP will actually slither out and onto my arm so I don’t have to pick him up. Whenever I can get back to work and get some extra cash, I plan to upgrade to taller tubs and put some branches/fake plants in. I may even use the 29 gallon tank I have for my male once I build an enclosure for my rat snake.
7 Likes
I’m mean, they’re certainly very good at hanging on when they’re young, but at least mine seem to have a little trouble figuring out gravity works a little differently once they start getting substantial girth. I definitely wouldn’t say the adults have the same climbing skills as a semi arboreal. I never need to support them for strength or positioning but on any even slightly slippery surface the adults often need a spotter for balance (though they never seem deterred in the least by falls which I find strange given their generally cautious nature)
Interesting video, but again, it’s just a lazy application of data to come to a conclusion that I don’t think is supported.
So (especially) young BPs climb trees and eat baby birds to survive. I don’t think that’s super controversial. It’s survival. It’s also not necessary in captivity, and I’m sure even in the wild if a BP happens to be next door to a colony of ASFs I doubt they go climb trees for the fun of it.
If the enrichment crowd wants to be taken seriously it’s pretty simple. No more unrelated or loosely related studies twisted to “prove” a need for enrichment.
DIRECT COMPARISON STUDIES…IN CAPTIVITY…of BPs raised in tubs vs spacious vivs. Compare health, growth, temperament, appetite, etc.
And none of this “my BP in a Viv seems happier!” No. Very simple, let’s see the data I would be more than happy to see a relevant study.
3 Likes
As @chesterhf has stated previously, even her lab mice need enrichment, as do zebra fish. All animals, regardless of how dumb most seem to believe they are, deserve some form of enrichment/exercise/ability for natural behavior. I know there will always be people that try to discredit and shrug off those of us that believe this however, largely to make themselves feel better on how they care for their animals.
2 Likes
Not at all, I’m just waiting, waiting, waiting for some actual data not just “feely” statements or applying loosely related or unrelated studies.
Comparing them to a mammal like a lab mouse? That’s not data.
Is their well being measurable? If it is, it’s very very simple. Comparison studies in captivity. Show the proof. I’d love to see it.
If it’s not measurable than it is complete conjecture to make claims about “needing enrichment,” etc, and to flip your statement I think it would suggest those in FAVOR of needing enrichment are just doing so to make themselves feel better.
2 Likes
If I’m discrediting or shrugging anyone off it’s because it seems like only lazy science is being used in making this argument . Present actual evidence gathered from directly related studies etc and reasonable people will listen!!
1 Like
In a few years when I have the infrastructure if no one is willing to put the work in I’d do it myself but there needs to be multiple direct comparison studies done with as large a sample size as possible.
It’s crazy to me no one is doing them, but I suspect people ARE, and their findings do not back up their opinion so they don’t make the data public.
Those in favor of enrichment do it to give these animals the best possible life in captivity, not just throw them in a plain box to be fed and bred. That is a sad existence for anything, no matter the animal. Given that the mass majority of people with large collections are breeders with racks that support the bare minimum for convenience, getting direct comparison studies done will be difficult.
It doesn’t help that said breeders are also the ones popularizing that standard of keeping them. Once I get a larger collection, and get my current BPs switched to fully decked out enclosures, I will be glad to do a study myself. I will reach out to a number of people that also provide enrichment for their animals as well, and see how theirs are doing.
1 Like
That is suggesting quality of life is measurable. If so, then it’s not that hard to do such studies. If they can catch hundreds of wild ball pythons and force them to regurge to prove they go into trees to catch birds it should be really simple to keep 50 hatchlings in tubs and 50 in vivs and keep as many conditions as possible the same.
I want to see more of this because I am interested in changing the hobby standards but only based on evidence not just feelings of poor snakey need climby time.
3 Likes
Now this I think is definitely true. There is a “hobby standard” and it does favor one side in this and those are the most influential people in the hobby too.
People on both sides seem to feel the way they feel and do not want to be bothered to provide evidence to support their stances.
2 Likes
Speaking as an actual scientist, I have to agree with Crawd’s statement, this is not “science” it is just [bad] correlation of random data points.
I will take it apart a little further… Just because an animal shows an ability to perform a task does not mean that animal is designed for that life style. Sloths are able to swim, but it would be wholly foolish to use that as a logical argument to say that sloths are semi-aquatic. But that is the argument being made here with ball pythons, just because they can climb to a limited capacity does not make them semi-arboreal…
Does this rattlesnake 4m up a tree mean that they are now semi-arboreal?
A simple observation of their body structure tells you balls are not semi-arboreal. I also think it is stretching it a bit to call an eastern rat semi-arboreal. Both species very clearly lack the physiological traits that define a semi-arboreal species. Compare them to a true semi-arboreal like a carpet python or a scrub or a Boa. There are very specific evolutionary adaptations these species have to allow for that lifestyle that ball pythons very clearly do not have
.
.
.
There are some people doing work like this. Lori Torrini (not certain I spelled that right) and Zac Loughman are both pursuing different studies along these lines
.
.
.
I think you are unfairly maligning breeders here. Yes, breeders keep in rack systems. But they do so because it is the easiest and most economical way for them to breed. I do not believe I have ever heard a breeder say that racks are the best way to keep animals, period, end of discussion. They just say that it is best and easiest way to keep high numbers of animals for the purposes of producing at the levels the want/need to produce at.
8 Likes
I will be interested to see what comes of these.
And in case it needs to be said I respect Ashley a lot, I know there’s plenty we agree on with keeping reptiles.
I’m not against questioning the status quo I think that’s good! But it needs to be done based on fact and any long term large scale changes that sweep the hobby need to be based on fact as well and for the right reasons.
If not changes to the hobby of course anyone is free to keep their animals as they see fit if they are providing the essentials.
1 Like