That’s the “L” where enclosure width+length < length of snake. Absolute minimum. That calculation doesn’t usually incorporate height with most ball python style tubs being ~5-7".
In perspective a 41qt tub is ~34+~16 ~ 50" with most 55ga being ~48+~12 ~ 60" accommodating 4’ or 5’ snakes respectively.
I think with the really big big snakes like Burms you can get away with slightly smaller, but I wouldn’t know. Never wanted one so haven’t looked into it.
@meerkatlyndz haha same no plans to cross that bridge 
Burms/retics and others are completely different than ball pythons. They are perfectly happy if 3 of 4 “sides” are covered roughly at their coil diameter. I’m not sure if that makes sense. Measure the diameter of the snake loosely coiled. That’s the minimum width of their hide/enclosure and they’ll mostly stay wherever they can experience something touching them. If you have a hide with a small door you’ll most likely find them on top of the thing. 
They’re kind of weird.
Completely different when they’re younger and smaller.
I don’t necessarily agree with keeping a 10’ python in a 2’ wide enclosure but if you have the chance to experience one you’ll really question what they want. Both snakes can be pretty good about letting you know they’re unhappy…
Sadly Clifford Warrick is well known Animal Rights activists in the UK and we all know animal’s right activists have an agenda just like Peta and the HSUS in the US he does not believe that reptiles should be kept in captivity.
Always question the motive of those that believe that there is only one way to do things and push their belief on others. 
Important Caveat to add Deb.
Ah I see! I actually did not know that, the article just popped up for me recently and since someone asked for a study, I decided to mention it. It’s difficult sometimes to find proper articles written with an unbiased opinion in the scientific community. It’s unfortunate that personal opinions outway actual observation and research at times, and that it makes it’s way into “science”. I hope we soon get a real unbiased report here in the future.
@thecrawdfather I personally haven’t experienced any issues with discomfort at larger enclosures, but I have heard of it as well. I believe it depends on the individual, but also the setup itself. The larger the space, the more clutter needed.
I’ve seen some people put balls in bigger setups but then keep it minimalist at the same time, which can result in a stressed snake due to too much open space. So it does depend on the execution on the setup. That and, some few individuals just truely seem incomfortable in larger setups regardless of clutter and in that case, I say downsize for the comfort of the snake. However, I have never personally experienced this myself!
@asura I think with the hides it depends on the type of tub/rack used and the size itself. A snake in a tub or rack with blackened sides may very well not need a hide at all. I reccomended and personally use hides with larger bins because in my experience with tubs, they do use them. I have always used larger tubs myself, and for this reason they need a tighter space than the tub itself. So that’s where the hide comes in, in my experience.
I agree experimentation and civil discourse is a necessity for the growth of our hobby. As keepers we have the ability to experience different methods first hand, and then discuss it together as a group. Mindless ranting at eachother will do no good.
I would love to see someone experiment with putting ball pythons in a larger rack system and document their behavior, and then move them to something smaller and watch for differences. And vise-versa as well. Then consolidate everything into a little “study” of their findings and share it someplace like this. It would be very interesting to see the effects on behavior, if any at all.
Items like this are interesting. Totally different experiences probably nearly the same set up. Why? Heat tape placement? Ambient? Gradient? Humidity? Substrate? (those aren’t directly questions, just rhetorical). I wonder what the answer could be.
I know the snakes I have without hides (some of them do have hides) can’t be stressed out. When someone visits them they’re generally just in the center of the dark area relaxed and ready to be scooped up with little fuss. Food responses are just fine.
I might ask around my local community. It’s too bad that nearly every forum is pretty much a terrible place to post enclosure photos: someone with fewer snakes than fingers on one hand and experience measured in months will inevitably start nonsensical “critique” and then pretend they started mistaken arguments “for the welfare of the animal” 
I just want to say that in my opinion tubs are not accepted due to “big breeder clout”, but rather because they are actually the optimal housing situation especially for ball pythons and similar species. Regardless of anthropomorphic views on the topic.
Not to go down a rabbit hole here, but the word optimal is very subjective. In this case
the optimization is more about the keepers than the kept. If we were truly using the most optimal enclosure it would be one that most closely resembles their natural habitat. The tubs are the industry standard based on convenience , size, and most definitely animal density/square footage. Rack systems were created out of necessity for optimizing space, controlling temps, and convenience of cleaning. It is by it’s very nature anthropomorphic as it is made by man, for man’s need and with man’s convenience at the forefront. To say they are actually the most optimal housing situation especially for ball pythons and similar species, is an overreach. The data to support this is derived by the industry and not scientific or biological evidence. I highly suspect that if you were to place a number of rack systems in the sub saharan region of Africa in which ball pythons reside, that you would not suddenly find them filled with ball pythons that have selected them for a habitat over something natural.
But also for people who only have one or two reptiles they probably want to look at them and enjoy them in a big 50 gallon+ enclosure instead of a tub. Also some people might think that the ball pythons don’t like being in a tub and they like having space to roam around. Those people are usually looking at reptiles as if they’re humans or emotional creatures that have feelings and are affectionate. Just saying that in my opinion those are the people who think that, not saying anything bad about those people just saying what I think that is why tubs aren’t used much.
I’m only referencing my own personal experience, as like many, I kept BP’s in large tanks for many years before switching to rack systems. I just find that my animals seem to do better and seem more comfortable. Not that tanks or larger enclosures can’t be perfectly adequate as well. Just my preference. I respect anyone’s right to disagree and house their animals as they please. 
It’s funny how the cheapest most space efficient way to keep BPs, The only way one person could keep 100s of snakes in one small area also happens to be the way they are happiest 
Isn’t that nice!!!
What a coincidence!
I only speculate with this post, but I think those that believe the bigger the better have not kept a large collection of animals. Some animals will do absolutely fine in a large enclosure but not all animals are that resilient to vulnerability.
I upgraded some of my adult racks over the last couple of years switching from nearly all 28 qt tubs to ARS 70s. Out of 60 females that were upgraded, half of them freaked out and went off feed until I moved them back to a “cramped” tub. Some of them were still fashing for several months. With my last order, the remaining animals are absolutely thriving in the ARS 5040 racks.
In my experience, most balls prefer smaller spaces than we tend to give them. Others may experience the opposite.
I keep all of mine over 200g in FB-70 tubs and they do great, however I also make sure they have substrate, two hides and a big water bowl in there as well. I fall in firmly into the “tubs work great, but ball pythons still need/deserve enrichment” camp and try to swap out different things for them to explore within the tub. Racks are really great for saving space, money and convenience and I think they’re a great thing for raising ball pythons, but do feel that sometimes people use them as an excuse to do the bare minimum.
I think, no matter what setup, a ball python thrives in a consistent environment. In my experience, environmental changes cause the snake to not eat.
If they’re in a small space and they go big, they won’t like it. If they go from a big space to a small space, they won’t like it. If the substrate changes they won’t like it. By not like it I mean they won’t eat. Just pick one method and stick with it.
@osbornereptiles I’m playing devils advocate a bit. Just common sense the more I think about it…as you said it would not be possible to keep such large collections in the type of enclosures recommended by some.
I’m a big fan of personal freedom I don’t think I have the right to tell someone how many snakes they are “allowed” to have, and neither does the government etc. but at the same time…do we REALLY keep them in little tubs because it’s best for the animal or because that’s the only way I can have 100 instead of 10 and can make a full time income??
It’s been said many times as long as they’re eating shedding pooping they are healthy but…I mean come on. Look at any living thing how bad do conditions have to be before their most basic survival instincts are overridden??? Really bad. Most living creatures will still eat pass waste and even breed given the opportunity in sub par living conditions. Is that really as high a bar as we need to set for ourselves?
Again. I’m playing devils advocate here, I was pretty set on the “industry standard” but I’ve definitely begun reading more balanced views in recent months and it has impacted me somewhat.
The argument of them going off feed when moved to a larger enclosure (by itself) I think is pretty weak.
One thing most all of us can agree on is as @rainvoyager mentioned they really crave consistency. Any large changes and sometimes even minute ones can throw them completely off. Take any living creature that’s spent it’s life in a cramped dark living area with zero stimuli and move it to something more open it’s very likely to be shocked.
That doesn’t mean the cramped little box was better for it necessarily does it? I have been quick to defend many of our bigger breeders here and in the hobby because as I said I’m a big fan of personal freedom and if you have the dedication to make this a full time gig you should be able to pursue it. At the same time I’m starting to question many of these industry standard arguments and I want to see some better answers than I do from most places now.
I think we need to constantly reevaluate industry standard practices and not be afraid to challenge the norm. If the hobby gets 10% better because we get uncomfortable and honest that’s a win for everyone.
Having bred ball pythons for 27 years, I would disagree. Every time I see someone with a small collection say balls just don’t go off feed for no reason, again has not kept a sizeable collection. Until you experience the changes yourself you can call it week all you want. If I’m wrong show me what’s right. No two of my animals act the same.