So, i know some will say they have a “Paradox Gene” which to my understanding is flat out incorrect. However, I have seen some breeders and lines seem to get more paradoxes than others.
So the question, how many of you have had experiences of paradox snakes producing more paradoxes down the line vs the frequency they occur naturally? What genes / morphs have you guys seen end up with paradoxes more often? And do you think genetics plays an affect even if it isnt a direct gene such as morphs are?
Depends on the species. In ball pythons, champagne and supers from the BlkPastel complex paradox quite a bit. In KSB there is a line of albino called paradox albino and it’s a consistently inherited trait.
Fair, yeah, so far as ive ever seen its not ever identified as a gene, but have seen some breeders claim they have animals that consistantly put out paradoxes every so often, hinting that it could be genetic, and if its genetic, the question then would be is it heritable and how? Just figured id post the question to see some experienced minds pick at it and hypothesize a bit haha.
Im not very familiar with burms, but i would take it this means theres a line of burms that are prone to paradoxing, meaning it could be hereditary for that line, or rather the increased chance of it occuring would be
As has been noted, there is no proven heritable “paradoxism” in balls. There is one in KSB that is directly associated with an albinism phenotype (and is not compatible with the standard Albino in KSBs)
I have a personal suspicion of what may be the nature of the mutation in both the KSBs and Banana, but I hesitate to give voice to it because there is a tendency in the hobby for people to run with educated guesses as “FACTS” and I have spent too much of my previous years trying to stamp out bad information that I do not want to now be a case of causing that same
Fair enough, my intent with this was mainly hypothesis/ theory based and not meant as being absolute fact, but more about brainstorming. I understand that in some cases people dont want to be quoted as a credible source when they were only guessing and had no intent of it being taken as gospel
All good :). I know ive had alot of controversial and theoretical topics. For me its just nice to not have to deal with the FB drama here, everyone (mostly) will state their opinions and reasons and with the rare exception not resort to name calling and insults. I love having intellectual and hypothetical discussions, but understand it isnt for everyone! I’ve even had a few people respond in DM because they wanted to say their piece and not have to deal with the backlash if somebody disagreed with them.
One day, i hope our hobby is unified enough where people can freely discuss the good, the bad, the ugly, the theory, etc. and not have to worry about who sees it. I feel we would progress alot further, but i know for breeders, reputation means alot, and having somebody twist or misunderstand your words can be just as dangerous as bad reviews after sales.
I’ve neither had nor produced any paradox animals, but I do want to give a big huzzah for all of those stimulating intellectual discussions. I love 'em. A second huzzah for open minds and careful, respectful mouths/fingers. So important, so often drowned out in social media. And a third huzzah for staying above the drama to the benefit of all those in herpetoculture, keepers and kept. We are all better when we are willing to learn and share.
I agree, while our fellow community members arent infallible, the questions and topics ive brought up on this forum would have caused riots on social media. Im very proud to be a member of this community, and truely look forward to reading what others on here have to say, as well as giving my own thoughts :). I always end up with new and interesting literature to look into speaking with you guys. On FB im just waiting to see how long before the insults and witch hunt starts xD.
Im really interested in figuring out what causes paradoxing, as it can turn a great looking snake into a one of a kind masterpiece, and if it could be done more reliably, it could be revolutionary to the hobby. That being said, id also like to know more about the risks. With any anomaly, it may not be the only change, how does it affect the animals physiologically. Are there more paradoxes than we know, but they have a potential to not develop fully because of the distortion. How do paradoxes work with morphs? Could paradoxes be hiding by simply fusing morphs to the same morph, thus ending up non visible. Ive had some cool ideas in my inbox that really got my mind ticking, and even if nothing comes of this but good conversation, i would still consider it worth it
This. Yes.
It’s always a pleasure spending time in the MM forums. Not so much in other venues at times. Heck, I’m one of those geeks who really enjoys scrolling through discussions about the genetics, the husbandry, the breeding of species I’ve never kept and rarely seen, perhaps scarcely heard of. And it’s always good to connect with others who share the passion.
I try to limit myself haha. I have my plate full with carpet pythons and ball pythons, if i start getting interested in others, itd be a problem haha. Heck, i went bioactive and now i have 9 different species of isopods xD.
Well I can tell you the two main mechanisms for it: mosacisim and chimerism. In the prior, there is some type of change in the genotype of a group or groups of cells that come from within the animal and those changed cells end up looking different from their neighbours. The latter is what happens when you get two genetically different and distinct groups of cells end up together in the same animal. This most often happens when a pair of different embryos fuse together, but you can also get it from rogue cells from the mother implanting into the embryo (and the reverse is also known to happen)
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Oh, it certainly happens all the time and we just do not know about it because there is no visual element. There are some crazy legal cases that have happened because of it happening in humans.
There are also every day cases of it that we just do not recognize - tortoiseshell and calico cats are a classic example of mosaicism
Didnt even think of calico cats as a type of paradox, but it makes sense, especially when you get the perfect split face ones. I wonder if some birthmarks are a type of paradox in humans… I also wonder if we may see more paradoxes in humans as time continues. With multiracial relationships becoming more prevalent, I wonder if we may start to see examples of chimeric paradoxing in families (where either the darker skin shows in spots of a light skinned baby or vice versa). For chimeric paradoxing, if its merged cells in the forming of the baby, i wonder if it can increase in frequency based on extrenious factors such as some animals/people are more likely to have twins/triplets, while others never will. And if so, could higher potential for paradoxing be line bred or spread to other lines to create new patterns.
I feel its a bit of a dangerous thought process is it can be line bred, as some may use it as an excuse to breed a line 30+ deep just to keep that trait (exagerating, but the point holds) but if it could be spread to other lines, it would be interesting, though i feel it would end up with alot of excess babies if people had to now test for something as abstract as an “increased prevalence” of paradoxes.
its always a good read!