This is so so important. Females do not breed because they want to - it’s a biological imperative to pass on their genes, as with any species. Just because she is capable of bearing offspring does not make it optimal for her wellbeing - there are plenty of species where the organism will die or put itself in harm’s way for the sheer purpose of passing on its genes. Think of the octopus, where females usually die after laying and guarding over their own eggs, Dictyostelium discoideum, the soil dwelling amoeba, where ~80-90% will sacrifice themselves to becomeing a stalk for the other ~10% to form the spores of a fruiting body so they can spread and reproduce, some spider species practice matriphagy, where the mother serves a food source for her young, etc and so forth. We caution those who wish to let their female ball pythons maternally incubate to make sure she’s big enough to survive that long without food, because a female could starve to death incubating her own young. Reproduction is not for the benefit of the female, it’s for the survival of the species
Setting the hobby aside.
All living things, once they hit puberty are caple of reproducing. This does not stop them from growing, cause them to die, or even produce birth defects. This is a natural process for all living things. Yes, everyone will have their own beliefs, be able to find studies that lean their way, and do things that they believe are OK to do. And all outcomes are not the same as any 2 living things are not the same.
Humans can reproduce around the age of 12. Unfortunately this does occur. And when it does, the person does not stop growing, die, or give birth with defects. I do believe most people would agree that this SHOULD NOT be done. But it does happen below legal age. And yes, humans are not the same as animals in many aspects. It was just a point.
But when it comes to any animal, we have to remember that they where all wild at some point (before humans got involved). They survived just fine reproducing on their own. And they, unlike humans, are not told to wait for a certain age or size to do so. Most (if not all) have been around much longer then humans. This should be an indication to us that they do not need our help in this process.
Ever since humans have taken animals in as pets, we do have to put their health into our hands. We do have to put them together so they can reproduce (if it is something you want them to do), or we can just leave them together and allow them to choose, as if they were in the wild.
This is where humans that have pets need to decide if, when, and how to start the breeding process. This will very with every pet owner. As long as the pet is healthy and not being abused in doing so, there will never be a correct answer, there will never be a right or wrong.
As a disclaimer… I am in no way taking sides, saying what someone decides is right or wrong. All living things within our care must be treated with respect and kept healthy. And if there are any laws pertaining to what we have in our care, they must be followed. And I am not saying all laws are correct, it is just the process we have to follow.
I agree completely! Females breed in the wild every year, if theyre body isn’t ready to ovulate and produce a clutch they won’t! Weather they’re 2 yrs old or 6. I’ve bred my 1300g desert ghost girl at 2 yrs old, she produced a nice 5 egg clutch, went back on food in 18 hrs. Ive also bred couple 2 yr old small females just to get them off a food strike. I had a 3k$ lav snow that different eat for 9 months, i paired her 2 times, she went back on food immediately but didn’t ovulate down the line, and obsorbed her folicles, but started eating regularly, it’s worked for me bout 75% of the time, in my humble small amount of experience. “That was advice from a larger scale hobby breeder.” To each their own!
A quick note i want to bring up, and one i havent seen skimming through. If there are weight requirements, there is likely a difference when considering a mother going through MI, vs a mother whose eggs are immediatly removed for AI. The MI mother needs alot more stored fat as she is unlikely to feed for the 60+ days she is incubating the eggs, a mother who you plan to incubate the eggs yourself should reasonably go back on feed a week or two after the eggs are removed, so wouldnt need as much fat stores. Mind that both still need nutrition for the egg laying process, but alot of that weight is fat, not nutrition. So as long as you are feeding a healthy diet full of nutrients to the mother, i think an AI mother could definitely have a good amount less weight than a MI mother, and still do just fine.
Just reading through this, and wanted to weigh in on why I, personally, don’t breed females before the age of three regardless of their body weight/condition.
People are correct in saying that females in the wild may very well breed before what we consider to be “proper” age/weight/body condition. So I think there is merit to the idea that the female’s bodies will tell them when they’re ready. There’s also the reality that many species of animals can choose to terminate a pregnancy, snakes included. How many females grow follicles and pair, but end up reabsorbing?
That said, so me, it’s all about the health of the animals at the end of the day. Does a female ball python who’s been fed consistently and reached 1300-1400g by a year and a half old have the reproductive parts to grow and produce eggs? Yes, probably. Can we assume that it’s perfectly healthy for her to do so? No, I don’t think we can. People were ragging on the human comparison, but it’s an incredibly apt comparison. Human girls as young as 10 go through puberty, begin having their period, and can become pregnant and carry that pregnancy. Their body is physically able to do it. But does that mean it’s healthy for them in the long-term? No, absolutely not. Putting aside the emotional maturity completely, a human child at 10 is barely halfway done growing. Pregnancy requires huge changes in the body - moving around organs, changes in hormones, depletion of nutrient and vitamin stores, etc. The body is physically capable of carrying a viable pregnancy to term, but no one will claim it’s healthy for a child at age 10 to do so. Odds are, that young girl will be looking at a very long recovery from pregnancy and definitely the potential for more complications, simply due to the fact that she has not matured enough for carrying a full-term pregnancy to be healthy.
This is a completely reasonable comparison in snakes, and I’m not sure why people are claiming it’s not. Snakes don’t have a pelvis, no, but at a year and a half their bodies and bones are very much still growing. Muscles aren’t completely developed yet (including, likely the muscles that contract to eventually help that female lay eggs) and muscle tone is especially lower in snakes in rack enclosures simply by nature of the fact they don’t move around anywhere near as much as a snake in the wild would have by that point to hunt, find new territory, etc. Sure, a year and a half year old female might give you a clutch of 2-4 viable eggs. But why risk it? Give her another full year to mature more, to continue developing those muscles, for bones to strengthen, for her to gather more nutrient and fat stores. At the very least it WILL NOT harm a female in any way to wait longer to breed her, but it COULD have lasting ill-effects if she breeds too early, even if by most opinion that isn’t a higher risk. It’s also worth noting that in the wild, females often have much shorter lifespans due to predation, lack of food, illness, environmental factors, etc. Their prerogative in the wild is to breed as soon as they physically can, because ultimately the biological imperative is to pass on genes and continue the species, and in the wild breeding early is favorable regardless of potential risk because the trade-off is that they reproduce, which is what they have to do in order for the species to survive. Ball pythons in captivity may very well start exhibiting signs of being breed-ready and developing follicles because they aren’t very far removed from the instinct and biological drives of their wild counterparts. But in captivity, that natural pressure to breed is not there, and their bodies don’t know that. If we could somehow make that known to their bodies in development (which of course we can’t), WOULD they start producing follicles at a year old if it was no longer an ingrained biological need to survive?
At the end of the day, I simply won’t breed females before age 3 in captivity, because to me it’s not worth the potential risk. It’s the same exact reason that I also do not breed neurological defect genes or other genes that have the potential to negatively impact an animal’s quality of life down the line (which we don’t need to get into here, because I’m very aware a large majority of people disagree, and that’s fine). Other people may think it is worth the risk. I made the choice when I started breeding that none of my females would be bred before age 3 regardless of size, body condition, or follicle production. I have a two year old female who is producing follicles right now, but she will not be bred until next fall. I am very confident that is the right choice for my animals.
I think it’s also worth noting that we have very little data on the long-term (as in, lifelong) effects of breeding on females. It’s very hard to track the health and longevity of female ball pythons in captivity, because the morph craze nature of the hobby has made it where many breeders sell females left and right when they no longer fit into projects - which is fine, but it means it’s nearly impossible to track if there is any correlation between earlier breeding and a shortened lifespan, or more health concerns later in life, etc. It could very well be that breeding a female too young takes a large toll on the body that shortens the lifespan, but we have no idea. It could also be that that’s not the case. Once again, to me it just isn’t worth the risk.
Good analysis InspirationExotics!
Although I would counter that you’re basing the foundation of your stance on an assumption rather than empirical data.
I have yet to hear from a single person who bred a female “early” with any complications as a result.
When you say there’s risk, what’s that based on? Any direct experience, second hand experience?
I bred a female at 18 months and she produced 6 eggs. The next season she produced 7 eggs. She is now fully back up to weight, larger than she’s ever been and very healthy. If I pair her this season again I anticipate she will have 7 to 8 eggs. Maybe this is the exception rather than the rule but that is my experience thus far, albeit limited.
In order to counter that point do you have actual scientific evidence supporting the other way around? Otherwise you are basing your assumptions on the same thing just a different opinion.
Judging from an empirical data standpoint, direct first hand experience and vast amounts of second hand experience trump positions that are otherwise void of such data.
We’ve already circled around on this a few times.
Right and you are still criticizing the opposite side without the same evidence you are expecting. You can find opinions on both sides with first hand experience but without solid actual scientific evidence both sides are opinions.
I’ve yet to see a single person state any experience that indicated a problem with breeding females earlier. Not one.
On the other hand I know of countless breeders with positive experiences doing so. Experience is solid scientific evidence, especially direct first hand experience, and when the scales are so heavily tipped toward one side it is reasonable to side in that direction.
I have lol personally. You can’t say show me the proof and you yourself don’t have this same proof.
It’s not fair or intellectually honest.
I hate to phrase it this way, but people hide things. If you do something bad, the last thing you want to do is publicize it. Now if you do something and it works, you tend to want to let the whole world know. Largely people are afraid of being blamed for their failures, but love to be complimented on their successes. So trying to collect a proper datapoint on this is rather akin to the whole “spider” debate where the bias is the opposite. In the spider debate, if nothing is wrong with the animal, people dont really say anything, but the extreme cases, people will start a crusade over, so even if the amount of spiders with a severe wobble are vastly outnumbered by those with no problem or very little wobble, what you see and hear in the community does not reflect that.
So on this, i would argue there is the chance that people have had bad experiences with this (my guess would be an increased chance of being egg bound) but because it was their fault and didn’t want people to think they cared more for productivity than the animals health, chose not to disclose the failure.
Essentially, without proper data collection, it is all opinion, because the crowd sourced info is inherently biased.
I have had a lot more problems with females I bred early and I’m not afraid to admit any issues I’ve had in the past. Whether it’s super cinny, breeding early, breeding spider, breeding siblings. I speak my opinions based on my experiences I can state them but I cant demand someone provide scientific evidence when I have none myself.
Fair, my point was that many people are afraid to share failures. So the point of “i dont see people talking about it” is kind of moot. I agree with you that to call something fact and not opinion, you would need a proper study, not data collected from forums and annecdote. The bias is too heavy to get a proper data point.
So what happened? You’d be the first I’ve heard of.
I’d be happy to show you the birth date, spreadsheet of confirmed locks, egg numbers, etc from the female I have that produced before she was 2 years old if you don’t believe me.
I’m just emphasizing that I haven’t personally seen one person share an experience of problems breeding a female early. If you have an example of direct experience it would be great to hear about it. The more data we have the better. A few breeders with negative experiences breeding females early compared to the vast amount of experience from larger high quantity breeders should be taken into account. Numbers are important and complications can occur at any age. And there are other factors like breeders not wanting to share negative experiences etc, but any data we can get is helpful.
I understood what you where meaning. My point was I have shared all my failures online so I have zero reason to make up issues from breeding early. I definitely don’t make any friends doing it. And it definitely doesn’t make me look more successful.
I agree, its embarrassing to share failures, but by doing so, you help pave the path for others to not make the same mistakes. If everyone were 100% Honest about success and failures, our ability to care for the animals would improve much faster, as we would have a noce large and accurate data pool of what works and what doesnt 
I could make a spreadsheet with my experiences as well what makes yours right and mine wrong? Big breeders don’t share failures like ever so with a lack of actual scientific evidence you are doing the exact thing point blank.
I have posted this stuff in the past while talking with you!
More assumptions my friend
I don’t recall, sorry.
Beginning to think you don’t listen to my “opinions”/ other side of the topic lol that and expecting others to provide evidence you yourself will not provide makes it very hard to have an actual discussion.