I was wondering if in the quest for the next morph, we aren’t actually harming more than anything just to attain a certain look. Much like dogs have been so overbred, inbred, selective bred to get those various “breeds” and “designer” breeds. Many of them have terrible flaws such as breathing problems, hip problems, pretty much anything. So are we doing this to the reptiles we breed? I know theres a level of inbreeding that happens to get double het for example, correct? We see albinos can be more susceptible to skin cancer, have poor vision, photophobia and more. Some morphs cause neurological issues such as a “wobble” or tiny eyes, or missing eyes.
I think many of these genes are not strictly cosmetic and breeding certain features has unknown or hidden affects.
Im not omitting myself for part of this too since i purchased these selective breed and designer breed snakes.
I had asked if the Matrix female and Matrix male that i want are related, i really don’t want to inbreed, although its possible inbreeding is in their heritage somewhere. Science has shown that inbreeding can lead to defects.
Ive only ever owned “mutt” dogs and cats that were rescues not bought. My scorpions are pure and i have no desire to use any of the babies i have to mate back to mom or with each other.
It seems many breeders see $$ signs over any potential problems. I almost feel like any defect is downplayed, like don’t worry bout the animal having the shakes, it eats fine. I can tell from my personal experience about neurological damage, nerve damage that i am living but not the same as a normal person, sure i spent years in rehabilitation to learn over what most people never think about like learning to talk etc. Yes i have “adapted” but i wouldn’t say my quality of life is “normal” i worked really hard to be independent so that i could live outside of the VA, but i have lots of Dr’s nurses, therapists and caregivers that help me in daily life, if i lost support i would have to go back to nursing home, which really sucks. Animals can’t say my bones ache or joints hurt etc. They may actually attempt to hide injury as predators home in on injuries and weakness and the sick.
So are we doing harm we cannot see?
Am i like overthinking this? Sometimes my brain thinks of stuff and it could just be crazy talk so i apologize if i sound stupid or crazy and sometimes say the wrong stuff, sometimes i get confused probably forget this tomorrow.
2 Likes
The problems not caused by morphs (like spider wobble or albino photophobia) are usually from inbreeding, problems during incubation, or just a freak occurrence. In reptile and invertebrates, inbreeding usually isn’t too severe (I think it’s due to them having less genes than mammals and related animals being less likely to create the homozygous form of a problem gene).
A generation or two of inbreeding is rarely harmful, and except for in the very first stages of proving out a morph or line breeding, reptiles are usually from genetically diverse sources. I’m planning on working towards some leopard gecko projects and I will likely be pairing siblings together (once and then pairing those babies out). Everything I’ve read says that it will be very unlikely to cause problems and while it does increase the likelihood of problems (like defects), it is usually very safe without problems.
Since reptile are often outcrossed and there’s a huge market of very diverse animals. I don’t see how breeding could ever cause inbreeding problems from pairing two animals from different sources.
4 Likes
Many animal species inbreed some in the wild. Line breeding, when done correctly and responsibly, is perfectly natural and safe. The key is to monitor negative traits, limit the number of inbred generations, and bring in unrelated animals at certain points to maintain vitality and fertility. The key is to maintain a certain level of genetic diversity.
4 Likes
The only Matrix I’ve ever found were produced by the breeder i use, so its more likely than not that they have the familial( sp.) Line and im worried that if i bred them together instead of to my others that inbreeding could be doing some harm. I most definitely don’t want to have unhealthy offspring. Since this morph orginintated from this breeder its very probable that any Matrix morphs are his not from a separate breeder who arrived at this on their own. Am i worrying about something making it bigger than it is or is my concern ok. I have some plans for Matrix and would love to produce a few more so that i have the breeding partners i need. If i did this as a 1 up im likely relatively safe? After i pruduce some matrix offspring i won’t be using them with any relative, their partners will be from another stock.
2 Likes
@erie-herps is correct inbreeding/line breeding is not bad as long as you bring fresh unrelated blood in frequently. I always use a family tree type of record keeping just to make sure there isn’t to much line breeding. There have been issues though when there is not a diverse genetic pool to start with or add from. I remember sinoloan milk snakes had a pretty bad inbreeding suppression making week snakes in the late 80s early 90s now I know some indigo snakes can suffer from this. My fear is since some snakes/reptiles are banned form getting fresh imports we may see some kind of inbreeding suppression from the inability to draw from a more diverse genetic pool.
3 Likes
The family tree idea is cool, i shall definitely have to employ a system like that along with tub labels to help avoid that issue.
2 Likes
For sure! @rmleone I always label with a code so none are ever confused with others then I found a free family tree app that works well although it looks weird when the dad is his daughters husband!!
also any type of list or google doc would work, just so it makes sense to you-that’s all that matters!
3 Likes