Keeping Ball Pythons as pets... Are we right?

Y’all gave them way too much credibility by even watching it.

These are not the people we need to persuade, these are not the people that are going to be educated and brought up into the hobby. They’re gone. They’re a lost cause. If they were a friend on social media they’re a “block” and move on. Focus on those that are uneducated but don’t have an ulterior motive.

(My 2 cents) I watched less than 10 minutes of it. And I can’t get that time back.

A much more interesting discussion is expos/shows (separate from the “morality” of having pets in general because that is what this comes down to. Reptiles are an easy target but these people feel the same about dogs cats any domesticated animals). Because if people ONLY did this because they “love the breed” they’d never ever subject them to the stress of an expo. There’s a business aspect. In my opinion that is not inherently immoral or wrong, and there is an amount of stress/whatever that is part of the deal and in the bigger picture is worth it and isn’t abuse.

Not to hijack the thread but…don’t throw away 23 minutes of your life watching that horses**t :slight_smile:

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If anyone is wondering I made it to 3:56 when she says they don’t have room to fully extend like they do when they eat.

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Well while I can agree with your last sentence I just think it’s good for people in the hobby to be aware of people like this and more than anything it’s just how we should better educate people like this who dont have the slightest clue about ball pythons. I honestly think that Karen just wasnt allowed to keep ball pythons so she dosen’t want anyone else to have them.

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@nathan_e if you have energy to burn and want to burn it on someone like her I wish you Godspeed lol.

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There is only 2 things that I am goin to address, because…well that video was bull*hit in every way like here has been said. It only lead me thinking bigger, and more meaningful things that propaganda. Like truth behind this all…

I think in Hamm (Europe) has very strict orders how to keep animals in expos. Hours, how long you can keep animals in table, temperatures, water…and so on. But like u said,( I think that travel boxes should be black), snakes should not been sold (or be on table) on clear small plastic cups. I really think that people are anyway going to buy the snake, If cups and expotables had more coverage to sensitive animals. But I have to go in bigger expos to see my self.

And This is THE only real deal in that video. I think wild animals should live in their original habitats. But I also understand that fact that this thought is too late for every animal to let live in wild.
But do we really need snakes, lizards, birds, from nature anymore? Don’t we have enough to breed and for pets? I think this video only shows the Horror market full of WILD ANIMALS, been killed for people’s beliefs. The hunter that had ANY animals, should be educated (or put down) for how he gets his animals and how he keeps them. But they do it for money, and we are ones to provide the money.

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Did we ever NEED them? (No, we didn’t. We WANTED them.) if it wasn’t wrong then, why would it be wrong now? If it was, then how are we all not hypocrites.

Maybe over simplifying it. But if we are going to have an ethics discussion it boils down to what is your position and how do you support it. Not everyone has to agree…but if we are going to engage in it, we all need a (somewhat) structured argument for why we arrived at our position.

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I completely disagree with the narrative this propaganda piece is representing. While I am someone who advocates for enrichment, I definitely do not think that we shouldn’t own these animals. Snakes and geckos are nothing like big cats. I do feel that we overbreed ball pythons specifically, but that has more to do with the massive amounts of breeders than the fact of them being kept in captivity.

I do feel that at this point in time, the importation of ball pythons should be reduced. We breed them heavily enough in captivity that I think the wild population doesn’t need to be touched any futher. At least, not on the scale it currently is. But that’s just my two cents.

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Now I’m gonna get something off my chest.

I purposefully posted this video because of its controversial and BS content. If I would have posted something supporting our views everyone would have nodded and carried on.

While it is filmed in a extremely biased and controversial way, it does (very loosely) pick up on subjects that we can work on. Without discussions, that’s not possible.

Although a lot of the comments here are about the video itself, a lot of good arguments have been made.

Keeping snakes in tubs :

The quality of life:

How we can improve:

And for those that didn’t make it through the full video, there is a little segment about a religion that worships the Ball Python which had some interesting things going on, but that’s for another thread.

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No way lol

In the article that @chesterhf posted about the pet trade they talk about the same place and the same religious group, but about how they harvest large quantities of ball python heads for ritualistic purpose.

from the article:

In Benin, where Vodun—voodoo—is an official religion, ball python heads are sold at the public market in Cotonou, the country’s biggest city. The collection and killing of ball pythons for voodoo and traditional medicine puts added pressure on wild populations. The religion, also practiced in Togo and Ghana, holds that different animals offer different healing and protective properties.

So oops again on the propaganda creator not mentioning something that would have been obvious having visited the place, but counters his “I don’t like pythons as pets, so nobody should have pythons as pets” narrative.

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Here is my take. Anyone who says people should not own this, or whatever other animal they view as off limits, as a pet yet goes to a zoo, is a hypocrite who should keep their mouth shut. Human beings have been taking animals in as pets for as long as we have existed. Where do all the holier than thou people think their dogs and cats came from? from at the time wild animals that were repeatedly bred in captivity to produce what people own today. Why is it ok to cage up birds who should be flying free? Or rabbits? do they think a domesticated rabbit just materialized in someones house one day? People are always going to have an opinion on things and when it comes to stuff like this its generally people who just flat out think they know better than everyone else. Who’s to say if we should own these or any other creature as pets. The fact is we do it mostly because we can as is the way of human beings and in my opinion as long as you are providing for that animal in a manner that allows it to thrive then whats the harm?

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I think the key phrase here is “proving for that animal in a manner that allows it to thrive”. There are some animals that really shouldn’t be kept in captivity, zoos or otherwise. We cannot create an environment adequate for animals like elephants, large cats, etc. Are they alive and reproducing? Sure, but they’re hardly thriving. It’s definitely a slippery slope to say which animals are ok to keep in captivity vs which should be left wild.
I would argue at this point ball pythons are about as domesticated as house cats and that we can provide an environment for them to thrive, but they certainly shouldn’t be used as an example to prove that’s it’s ok to keep exotic wild cats. That’s how we end up with dumpster fire human beings like the tiger king breeding lions and tigers.

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who tried to prove its “ok” to keep exotic wild cats? Im not really sure what point you are trying to make. When I mentioned zoo’s my point was that it is hypocritical to say people shouldn’t have certain animals as pets but then go to a zoo with nothing but captive animals. Many of which probably shouldn’t be kept. It was more a point about the people rather than this debate. With regards to this debate Im making the point of these dogs and cats and rabbits etc that people think are ok to own all came from wild animals. Which again makes them hypocrites. I feel like youre making my point for me but still trying to counter what I said??

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In the video they do go and meet these people that chop the heads off of ball pythons (who are are completely different group of people to the religious BP worshiping group) and see their views on the pet trade across the globe.

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Meant was that do we need to get them more from nature…I think not. Yes the damage is done in past, and I can only do my part in best way I can. And yes it it is a little bit hypocrite to speak ethics in this discussion. Obviously cause I also have animals…

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I agree with you on this point 100%, just arguing that it is a slippery slope and not entirely black and white to determine which animals are considered domesticated vs wild animals in captivity. Which ones are thriving vs surviving? I think everyone here agrees that ball pythons are thriving in captivity, but are Anacondas? Tegus seem to be doing great, but what about the guy in my hometown who h as three alligators in his basement in the mountains of Northern PA (not kidding here)?

This is arguably the worst argument I have ever heard, plopping domesticated ball pythons back in the wild is not a band-aid for demolishing natural populations. While undoubtedly the ball pythons that have been in captivity for generations are very similar to the ones found in the wild, generations of selective breeding and husbandry have undoubtedly contributed to genetic drift from wild populations. They may have less resistance to parasites, starvation and no fear of natural predators. Snakes that have been fed F/T or even live pet store mice/rats may not know how to hunt for themselves, and individuals that show unique coloring or patterns are at a higher rate of death by predator.

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Not to mention that we could just as easily introduce pathogens into wild populations of not only BPs, but animals that eat them. That is why if I were to go out and catch a garter snake and keep it for longer than 6 months, I would not be allowed to release it. Protecting wild populations is better than removing them only to try and repopulate later with potential disastrous results. I personally don’t see why people still even import BPs given the thousands upon thousands that we have captive bred.

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You’re 100% right. I love ball pythons and see nothing wrong with raising and breeding them in captivity, but I think we also need to do our part to ensure the survival of wild populations as well. It seems hypocritical otherwise to see people talking about how much they love their ball pythons but not caring if the species in the wild is decimated. We should be an advocate for the species as a whole.

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Well although I dont agree that we could just reintroduce captive ball pythons to the wild it has been done with many species of animals, just look at fish hatcheries for example. I also see it as it being our responsibility to maintain a species population so if we must raise a certain species to be released back into the wild then so be it because without doing so it could cause decline in that population and possibly extinction. My whole point being that the existence of a species survival is on us because we are the ones dominating the planet and hundreds if not thousands of animals go extinct because of us every year so if we must save them by means of releasing some back into the wild then I am all for it. Will some of those animals die? Yes, yes they will but many will survive as well and go on to reproduce.

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