No, just regular coconut mulch and papertowels
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Get rid of that mulch and paper towels. I sent you a private message
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I very much advocate NOT using PAM
There are a lot of questionable things with PAM, including a couple open lawsuits. The use of the active ingredient for reptile is classified as ‘off label’. It has also been so massively over used that there are populations of mites that have developed a resistance to it
With regard to diatomaceous earth. Do not use it inside the snake enclosure. As noted, it is a desiccant but, more importantly, it is violently abrasive. Many moons ago it was put in toothpaste as a polishing agent until it was discovered that it was literally wearing people’s teeth away. It is also such a fine powder that it is easily inhaled, which is bad news for lungs
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I have only used it once several years ago. I suggested it because it worked for me perfectly. Before I used it however I called the company and talked to a gentleman there who instructed me as to how to correctly use it.
I have had no reason to research the pros and cons since then, hence my recommendation based solely on my experience. Thank you @t_h_wyman for the info.
Edit to add: All of my animals survived. I have not had a mite since thankfully.
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I’m not sure I follow. It isn’t a drug for animals (it isn’t a topical, though such products do exist and of course shouldn’t be used on reptiles), nor is this a case of using it in their food, so it isn’t clear how FDA labeling is relevant. It is registered with the EPA for the usage described on the label. Could you clarify what ‘off label’ means here, exactly?
The only lawsuit I could dig up is an older one in which ProProducts is the plaintiff. Would you please give some info on the couple lawsuits you mentioned so that they can be searched?
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Off label is a term for when a doctor or veterinarian is telling you to use a product in a way that it’s not listed to use.
So a medication for humans may be given to a dog as ‘off label’ use.
Or a medication for horses can be used for a dog.
People everywhere use cotton swabs as an off label use because they come with a warning to not use them in your ears. 
So with PAM… It’s your own discretion to use it for reptiles when someone says to online. It could be difficult to pursue it in lawsuits and that may be why they’re still open cases? Not sure exactly what Travis has dug up tho.
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I realize that. But a permethrin environmental spray is not a pharmaceutical, which I pointed out by noting that there are in fact permethrin products that are pharmaceuticals. “Off label” is shorthand for something like ‘used in ways not explicitly permitted by the FDA labeling of that product’. Neither bug spray nor Q tips have FDA labeling (AFAIK), and so can’t be ‘classified as’ (by whom?) off label.
Very, very few materials we use around or for the care of reptiles are FDA labeled for that purpose, but we wouldn’t say that aspen chips or Chlorox bleach or GE silicone sealant are being used ‘off label’.
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There’s EPA guidelines for Permitherin as a restricted use substance.
The only animals listed for use on the label are livestock, poultry, horses and dogs.
Mentioned indoor spaces are barnyards, not small space enclosures that can lack proper ventilation. And definitely not on paper towels. Even for surfaces like sidewalks it’s only expected to work in cracks and crevices, not the surface.
On top of it being toxic to fish and cats…
All I know is when using any product regardless of how it was regulated, when I worked veterinary we had to make sure that it was written down in our charts that things were being used ‘off label’. Liability issues an all. We definitely wanted our pet parents to know this was not an intended use and explained the warnings.
Especially when using qtips in a dog’s ear. We had to retrieve a couple during my time there. Lol
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I lightly sprayed PAM on single sheets of paper towels in my well ventilated garage, let them dry completely and then placed them in my snake tubs. After that I put the snakes back in the tubs and voila no more mites.
I can see if PAM is used incorrectly it may be detrimental to certain animals including snakes, especially if it’s sprayed into the enclosure and the animal is put back into the enclosure before the product is dry. (No ventilation). But I followed the directions to the letter that were given to me directly from PAM and no fatalities or illnesses occurred.
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It’s mostly a problem because PAM is giving a use case for the pesticide that goes against what the pesticide has listed.
And sadly, while your animals have been fine, others have not.
I had to help with hospitalizing an exposed cat having seizures because the owners put a dog flea collar on them. Other reptile keepers have lost reptiles.
I thankfully have never had to deal with mites at home. But we never used PAM for them at the job where I did. We basically stuck to ivermectin and off label fipronil that was dosed out by a licensed vet.
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Permethrin is absolutely used under EPA registration for surface treatment in many applications (including on human clothing). Every livestock-marketed product of permethrin I’ve used (RTU and concentrate) lists it, and it works well on surfaces because it is very stable there once dried.
The EPA approves these surface uses for a very typical “Permethrin 0.5% Multi-Purpose Spray” (same concentration as PAM, for whatever that’s worth):
“Hold sprayer approximately 12 to 15 inches away from surfaces to be treated and spray [this product] until surface is damp, but not to the point of run-off.”
“Spray bookcases”
“Spray edges of carpeting and under carpeting and rugs. Make localized applications [of this product] to floor and baseboards. Spray until surface is damp, but not to the point of run-off.”
“Treat baseboards, moldings, and floors.”
“Spot spray treatment of infested areas, pet beds, resting quarters, nearby cracks and crevices, along and behind baseboards, moldings, window and door frames, and for localized treatment of floors and floor coverings.”
“Applications to vertical surfaces (such as the side of a man-made structure)”
Just to be clear, I’m not making a case for or against the use of PAM. I’m only pointing out that no small portion of the claims opposing it so far seem not to be accurate.
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shrug I was rattling off an EPA stamped pdf earlier too. Depending on where you look those documents are also contradictory. Maybe it’s the concentration? I didn’t check that far.
But pretty much across all of the ones I’ve seen it is off label use to use permitherin on reptiles. (And very not for use on cats).
Edit:
Dug up one of the ones I was skimming through. From the permitherin sfr sheet from Martin’s. I worded it poorly. It’s limited usage not effectiveness
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I was told to spray lightly/sparingly so naturally I held the can at least a foot or more away from the paper towel. The PAM representative said it would continue to work for 30 days.
I was told to lightly spray the flooring/carpeting around the enclosures
I was instructed to spray a cloth with PAM and wipe around the openings of the enclosures including any ventilation holes. This was also said to last 30 days.
Along with FDA/EPA regulations/do’s and don’ts I think none of this is helpful if the product user possesses little to no common sense. In other words “Don’t spray your snake with PAM!!!” Don’t drench the enclosure with PAM and stick your snake back into the enclosure!!!”
If in doubt on how to use ANY product like PAM, call the company for directions. Don’t guess or get advice from people who do not know what they are talking about. Would I use PAM again if I had to? You bet! I have a can of it on hand. But I am not planning on having to use it again……
I really don’t get why this misleading phrase keeps being repeated. Different products containing permethrin are EPA registered for different applications. Provent - A - Mite (EPA reg no 73617 - 1) is a product containing permethrin as its active ingredient, and is EPA registered for the reptile-related purposes under discussion in this thread. It isn’t a matter of contradictory labeling, it is a matter of different products being labeled differently. Pharmaceuticals are exactly the same – you can’t look at ivermectin tablets labeled for treating intestinal worms in humans and conclude that ivermectin paste is being used off label to treat parasites in horses. You can, however, determine that ivermectin paste is being used off label if it is used to treat parasites in sheep, though this is because there is no ivermectin paste labeled for use with sheep (there are both drench and injectable formulations of ivermectin labeled for use with sheep, but not paste).
“Off label use” refers to FDA labels – I mean, officially:
Using an EPA regulated product in ways it is not EPA registered for isn’t ‘off label’, it is illegal.
“Pesticide product labels provide critical information about how to safely and legally handle and use pesticide products. Unlike most other types of product labels, pesticide labels are legally enforceable, and all of them carry the statement: “It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.” In other words, the label is the law.”
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It says it right on the document too. Do not use on reptiles. (Or heat elements or empty cages which I have definitely seen people do too x_x)
Tortoises only. So technically one is allowed from newer updates to labels.
My phone will not let me flip this stupid image to landscape
Here’s your sign! . I definitely agree that this product should not be used “on” reptiles. But I can envision someone spraying the stuff directly on the animal!!!
I have also heard people say do not inject your snake with ivermectin but that’s exactly what my reptile vet does to get rid of snake mites, which was what I was going to do before I tried the PAM……
But that is under a licensed veterinarian. It’s a different case there. Like my dog needing to take gas-x as odd as that sounds. There’s the off label again, hahah
The wrong dosage or the wrong animal can be problematic. For example, collie breeds can get neurological damage from ivermectin.
Anyway. It’s all a big runaround anyway because sadly, a lot of medical issues are still looked at as being something owners should just do because vets are unreliable. While that may have been true in the past, times are changing. I haven’t used a fogger for fleas in well over a decade… I don’t understand using potentially dangerous methods when other options may be available.
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I remember Dr Clarke once recommended baby gas drops for my Yorkie that had lymphoma and leukemia. I remember she said Peptobismal is a no no because it has aspirin in it but milk of magnesia is safe……
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I know this is a serious topic so please don’t anybody take this wrong. I’ve been in bed with a migraine all day. Felt enough improved to try and catch up on a few threads. I read this…
…and thought, huh, I never heard of that! Caron is really going off label there. If nonstick cooking spray can get rid of mites, well, it might be messy but should be less toxic than a lot of other treatments!!
Consider this a PSA for not doing actual research with a headache. 
I’m going back to bed.
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