I recently hatched a spider clutch. Every single spider was deformed, non-spiders were not and are thriving. Every single spider is now dead because of issues. I dont know if my girl just has bad genes, or what but i dont feel the issues can be blamed on the incubator as i have had 6 clutches over the past few months and not a single other snake has had any issues, and several others over the past 2 years. It was only the spider morphs. I am selling the female as a pet and never breeding another spider again. I think the gene is beautiful. I hope some day we can figure out how to rid the morph of its issues. I also wont be working with spider complex morphs. Its just sad and frustrating. Hope, my yellowbelly has issues because the mom used old retained sperm and richard my od clown that died, had issuss because i messed up.
I love the spider gene. I think that spider morphs are one of the better pets because they (in my experience) seem to be less head shy. We have several we keep around as pets and we love them and they eat good and are super interactive.
That said, Im with you. We bought a gravid female (unknown to us) and half the clutch didnt make it and the 2 that did were soooo small and corkscrewed so bad. Heartbreaking. We sold that female and won’t be breeding spider gene in anything. Im not one of those that think they should never be bred, but for me its too hard. There are plenty of breeders in my area working with that gene and they seem to sell well and find some success with their pairings, and I leave them to it.
Totally understand, and respect the decision you’ve made. I myself did the same thing a long time ago. Unlike your clutch which sounds very horrible for you to go through, mine were usually pretty good. I’d have a few with a decent amount of wobble, but other then that they thrived just like @themorphranch stated. Always ate, tamed down fast, grew and bred perfect. Then I did get a clutch where 2 were pretty corkscrewy, 1 I gave away as a pet only after it was established, the other was way worse and didn’t make it. It was no other birth defect other then a pretty extreme spider wobble. So even though I did great overall hatching relatively healthy spiders, this one bad experience was enough for me not to want to do it again. I would never judge anyone for breeding whatever and whichever morph they wanted, but for me personally I am in agreement with you. Sorry you had to go through a rough time with that clutch, don’t get discouraged. Good post!
Sorry about that rough experience. I definitely respect your decision.
As far as personal experience with some other genes in the complex, just for another data point for others. I’ve hatched a lot of heterozygous Black Head or Spotnose with never an issue with health. I can’t speak personally about any others in the complex or the super forms yet.
That’s terrible, I’m sorry you experienced that!
I’ve hatched a few spiders myself, and none of them have had issues. Three of the ones I hatched out are still a part of my collection as holdbacks, and I hope to breed them in the next year or so.
It’s rather odd that some people have bad experiences with them. I wonder if it’s just bad genetics between a specific pair that does that.
Some recent ish pics of them, they’re all 2020 girls.
Pewterbee (pastel cinnamon spider)
Butter Spinnerblast (butter pastel spider pinstripe)
Its got to be faulty gentics in specific individuals or pairings. Incubation issues doesnt explain this when every other snake hatched over many clutches the exact same way have had no issues. The 2 babies that did have issues, have explainations, that was not incubator. I am honestly a sensitive person, i have a difficult time with loss, and its not something i am going to set myself up for. I love the moprh, its beautiful. Especially since i dont know if its the female or the pairing. The male sired a perfect leopard fire clutch so i highly doubt its him.
My spotnose does have a wobble. I am just going to choose not to work with it. I wont do super black pastel or super cinnie. That has been decided long ago. I also dont care for white snakes (other then pied) so Bel complex isnt in my future either.
I love every one of my noodles and loss is difficult. I will leave the spider breeding for the others
Spotnose are way less prone to a high degree of wobble unless in their super form(power ball) So you don’t have too much to worry about, unless you breed it to another spotnose or spider complex. I agree with the super cinny and super black pastels, they can have a lot of kinks and birth defects, but the complex also includes het red axanthics which go extremely well with them and aside from possibly some minor duck billing doesn’t have bad issues. You could always use mahogany for dark snakes as well. Also there is a lot of bel complex that doesn’t make all white snakes, like purple passions, super phantoms/mystics ect. I would just hate for you to write off a lot of morphs you may or may not have, just because of this bad experience. Breeding is usually a fun, rewarding and challenging experience, I would hate for anyone interested in it to miss out or give up-that’s all. Good luck for the future!
The wobble/neuro associated with this gene (and the associated alleles) can NOT be gotten rid of. They are inherent to the mutation. The only way to get rid of them is to get rid of the mutation entirely
This does not clear him. I have a female and a male that are both repeat proven breeders with other animals without any issues but this past year the entire clutch I got from them died about a week after they had their first shed. Both parents can be carrying “problem” genes that are fine alone but create disasters when combined
I would not immediately exclude the incubator. Do this long enough and you will learn that there are hot and cool spots inside an incubator. Also high and low circulation points that can lead to humidity dead zones or hypoxic pockets. A probe or sensor does not monitor the entirety of the incubator, it only monitors the area directly around the unit
As someone who’s primary career is built around building science and home performance I can’t agree with this enough. On an oversimplified level, having a tub in an incubator with 80-100% humidity and warm temps, you have tiny little tropical storms going on in each box essentially. You’re dealing with ambient pressure differentials and sustained temperature deltas, without the ability to accurately measure some of the conditions that creates.
I’m sorry that you had this awful experience, @nikkip. I, too, am affected by every loss and every baby born with an issue.
Exactly so. It’s a hard call to make, but breeding parents who are carrying problem genes keeps and perpetuates those genes in a population. I don’t work with BPs but there have been heated discussions about just this in other species.
What was the pairing
I want to clarify my earlier post. My writing is a bit muzzier than usual today.
I meant to underline @t_h_wyman 's point about how an individual may well produce unaffected offspring with one mate, then a problem gene shows up when it’s mated to another animal. This means that there is potentially a problem gene passed down to every one of its offspring, with any mate, whether or not the problem shows. In the absence of genetic testing (as yet impossible for many things) or test breeding, one can’t assume the offspring are clear. From that point, informed decisions can be made about whether or not to breed an individual. It’s still a breeder’s decision, of course. I don’t think my earlier post was clear. I didn’t mean to sound disrespectful. Apologies if I did.
I think that’s a very mature and respectful way to look at it. It is so strange how many have zero issues and others have tons. I’m sorry you and other have had problems, and definitely understand - I don’t breed spiders and don’t plan to for similar reasons, along with lack of expertise (I’m coming up on my first BP clutch, mostly keep boas) but also understand others have wildly different experiences.
It only bothers me when some vilify breeders who do work with it, because they have had zero issues etc. They’re experience is simply different - obviously it isn’t a money thing since there’s way better investments for sure.
Sending good vibes your way!
Fire to flame spider. I have a hard time believing thta it was the incubator that only affected spiders nothing else.
Sorry about your loss, I made sure my first BP was not a spider or any of the other morphs that have neurological issues. They are beautiful but imo it’s like a pug, super cute but health issues out weigh the cuteness. I personally wouldn’t buy one but I know it’s popular. I hope your next clutch brings you healthy & happy noodles
I don’t think incubation issues are the cause kinking deformities. I had 3 clutches with kinked babies last season and all came from females that were gravid during a move and the new location was cooler/ less stable temps for 2-3 weeks. Every clutch that followed was stable temps and no kinks. It happened to me two years ago with one female. She was at the bottom of the rack and it got colder in my house and she produced a kinked baby as well. Tony with hardwired Exotics mentioned it as well.
Outside that a friend of mine got a male snake with a minor club tail and every baby he produced was deformed, so it’s also possibly hereditary depending on the parents.
I am confused by how you say you do not believe incubation issues can result in kinking but then you detail a situation that supports an incubation issue leading to kinking. The period of development in the gravid mother is part of the incubation process
There are also other situations beside temp that can lead to kinking, like osmotic pressure.
Because it only affected the spiders, nothing else. If it was incubation, it wouid have affected the others. Only the spuders. In this specific case its probably something genetic. If not in thus vlutch in other clutches i would have had issues. All breeder females are in the same rack, same tub type, same bedding and all incubated the exact same way. If it was something in incubation from the start, it would have happened in other clutches. Byt nope this only happened in the spiders
I agree in this case that it was spider genetics in this particular pairing that caused the issues. The reality is like everyone has stated there’s a lot of reasons for kinking and deformities.
Also as others have stated just a bad pairing of genes, your fire x flame, spider could also be just that. But the facts are ONLY the spiders in this case were affected in the same clutch and out of 6 additional clutches in the same incubator around the same time period no other deformities occurred(also no other spider hatchlings I presume) just too much in my opinion to be another issue.
On another note this fire you paired the flame, spider with do you know if it is from a spider clutch? I have heard some say even clutch mates of spiders should not be paired with spiders out of abundance of caution. I see no real evidence behind this personally, just curious.
Just a thought, but I don’t think @t_h_wyman was referring to the OP about the incubation comment in his last comment. I believe he was referring to the post directly above his that talks about not thinking it was an incubation issue when it clearly temp issues causing the kinking deformities they were seeing.