1200g Suma. She keeps getting darker. My Suma Pied x Super GHI clutch slugged out.
Suma Black Pastel het Pied
Suma Pied and Suma Black Pastel het Pied
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If someone doesn’t think that there is an unfathomable depth of knowledge in this community, they would merely have to read this thread. This sounds like a group of bioengineering and genetics professors have a roundtable discussion. Fascinating information. To me at least.
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These are beautiful!
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Thank you. Having been in the pied game for almost 20 years, I decided about 5 years ago to persue Suma instead of Panda/Super Cinny due mostly to color/pattern distribution and there is no risk of deformity in Suma. Adding only one copy of GHI, BH, Black Pastel, etc, also makes some of the darkest black of any of the dark morph combos. What I like best about Suma Pied is the amount of color they retain in comparison to Panda and Super Cinny Pieds, as most of the latter are usually all white or very high-white.
As far as the darkness comparison, Sumas tend to darken over time whereas super Cinny and super black pastel lighten into a dark brown. I first bred Cinny into Pied over 15 years ago and I’ve seen the best and worst examples. There is still so much to be discovered and I plan to help along the way.
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I’ve bred several species of mammals & reptiles, as a hobby for almost 52 years. (Yeah I’m an old dude 
)
You make very valid points and I know you as a very smart breeder by reputation and I respect your huge successes! I also do like the Suma’s a lot but no interest or time at my age to start a long project…
I’ve decided to sell my small collection of 150 balls over the last 2 years. I’ve only got 5 adults and 2 juvi and 6 babies left to sell (total of 13) that are my holdbacks from my panda project!
My ball Python goal was to produce really cool looking Black Pastel Pieds and to move to producing higher color patterned Jet Black Pandas.
I’ve accomplished my goals and to be clear to the group, I’m not suggesting anyone follow my lead or do what I do… just showing how lucky and successful a difficult breeding can be made less difficult by listening to proven experts who have Done it!! Like you and me 
& I really appreciate your time to respond to this string, intelligently!
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This is the one of the 2 last siblings to my 4 panda babies (6 in clutch)
This is a black pastel pied with great genes and pattern from my Panda Project!
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These are the Panda clutch parents:
Both Black Pastel Pieds
2 years 2 clutches 7of 13 eggs were Panda Pieds!
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I would add Acid/Confusion into that list. My Acid BlkPastel, Acid Mojave, and Acid Blackhead BlkPastel are significantly darker than the non-Acid forms.
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my Acid Pastel YB male is a terrible feeder. He’s eaten 16 times in about 18 months. I’ve been wanting to put him to one of my Pied projects but he’s barely pushing 350g. Maybe one of these days.
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It is always the ones you have the most hope for that kick you in the crotch…
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I have 3 kicking me currently lol
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It as stated is actually 100% true.
With all due respect, you and I are just not talking about the same thing at all!
If you want to discuss balls that don’t have issues when breeding it’s like talking about most single gene snakes… that’s a totally different discussion.
I am only trying to help educate those people and breeders; who would like to “reduce” the risk of defects when breeding black pastel Pieds together… nothing more!
Logically, you cannot use an argument in any discussion if you change the basic perimeters of the original construct!
Agree to disagree!
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You stated that most super forms produce defects and it is a part of breeding. That is totally incorrect Huffman and het red axanthic for example are defect free in the super form and in the same complex as black pastel.
Would also like to point out no inbreeding is required to make any combo. Inbreeding just speeds up the process.
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If that is the case, then you should not have made the all incomplete-dominant morph encompassing statement of (emphasis added by me to point out your choice of wording):
You accuse that Shaun has taken it upon himself to “change the basic perimeters of the original construct” but completely ignore that it is your own words, directly quoted here, that set the original construct as being ANY super combo. By choosing that specific phrasing, you encompassed each and every super form in the hobby, be it SuperBlk or SuperEnchi or SuperYB or etc…
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Further, the issues of kinking and duckbilling in the SuperBlk and SuperCinny and absolutely not caused solely from inbreeding. They are an inherent secondary phenotype of the mutation in the gene, much the same way “wobble” is inherent to the Spider morph. It is true that, in this case, out-breeding might help to reduce the risk of it happening through the introduction of second-site gene variants that can help to decrease the likelihood of the negative expression phenotype, but that is not a guarantee of perfect SuperBlks all the time, every time
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Agree to disagree 
I should have used a different word instead like “many or several” Vs “most”
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Appreciate all the 
For these top quality beautiful animals, as I retire & depart the hobby and find them all the best new homes possible!
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Any breeding techniques for Panda, e.g temperature, humidity, etc? Thanks for sharing.
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Some people say that incubating at a lower temperature reduces defects, but I personally have never seen any verifiable evidence/statistics on that. Best recommendation I can give you is to pick a gene combo with super mahogany, GHI, black pastel, etc. that doesn’t involve super black pastel or 8ball.
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Thank you very much for your advice. Will try.
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