Thank you!
Yes very 
it’ll be a fun (maybe a little challenging) clutch to ID too haha
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Heck, part of the fun of hatching season is scratching our collective heads and playing Guess That Morph 
. Seriously though, you know they’ll all have Hypo, Caramel ( aka Amber), and Tessera. Amel is easy. Diffused can be a bit tricky with Tessera but isn’t usually tooo tough. Charcoal and Lavender will do some interesting things with those other genes. You don’t have known, similar, traits like Anery AND Charcoal, or Hypo AND Strawberry. (Of course, the key word they’re is “known.”) It should be doable by the community, and we’ll all enjoy seeing what you get. 
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What does fighting amongst males look like? I paired the caramels in a viv today so I could observe. I’ve seen/read about uninterested females fleeing, but never seen the pair entwine like a twizzler while twitching and not lock up. They’ve entwined like this before, and had tails line up but not do anything, and the female was more keen to get away.
From what I can dig up, it seems the behaviors are awefully similar but have key differences. Like aggression, entwining, twitching vs twitching, lying beside, and locking in a gentler fashion. But what then are the signs of an aggressive breeder?
I’ve gotten mixed info on how aggressive their mating is from an ex breeder, and it seems to vary for individuals anyway when I find videos online (aggressive breeders vs gentle ones).
I’m sure I’m silly to be worried she’s actually a male again but 
the recent twizzlering and holding onto the other (that I think has happened before but I couldn’t see the whole thing like I could today) has me concerned.
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Yes, males fighting will entwine each other. Usually their twitching will be more extreme or violent-looking. They may lift their bodies to push the other one away. Females sometimes do that too, but I’ve never seen entwining with a male/female pair (other than the tail area). If the female doesn’t want to breed, she’s more likely to flee, buzz her tail, or push him away. If you Google “male corn snakes fighting”, there are a few videos that show it pretty clearly.
Have you done a subcaudal scale count with the female? It’s not a 100% accurate method, but I’ve found it’s about 80 or 85 percent accurate on my snakes. A probe kit can also be quite cheap. Or there’s always Rare Genetics. And feel free to post a clear picture of the underside of the tail if you’d like us to make an educated guess!
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I’ve never seen two males together in person, only on videos. What you’re describing does sound potentially like what I’ve seen on videos but I don’t know if what I’m imagining from the description is what is actually happening. Have either of these been bred before? Have you tried pairing either with anybody else?
Do the tails of the two snakes in question appear similar in shape and thickness? If the snakes are of somewhat different sizes, consider each one’s tail relative to itself. Looking from the bottom and also from the side, there’s usuallyemphasized text** a difference visible between male and female. Not always, and not necessarily easy to spot if you’re not familiar with what you’re looking for.
How long after you put them together before they are wrapped? How long are these twizzler-fests? How does this end?
Here are a couple thoughts that may help you sort out if you’re seeing aggressive courtship vs territorial battles. First, twitching which is part of courtship can be pretty intense, but after the initial moments a male-female pair will start syncing their movements. It actually seems like sort of a dance. Once they actually lock, they nearly freeze; twitching stops though the tails will continue to move gently.
A male who’s aggressively pursuing a reluctant female will often chase her around and try to corner or pin her down. If this goes on for more than a few minutes, I generally separate the two and try again in a few days. Male corns have been known to hold/bite a female during a lock but this shouldn’t look dangerous. It’s not common.
Hopefully all is well.
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I haven’t tried pairing with anyone else since I only have 1 other adult female (the snow) and don’t wanna risk them locking (the only het they’d have in common is possibly amel), and no other proven males, just the younger ones I’ve raised.
Usually it’s not very long after putting them together, like the second he notices the other and they start twitching, especially yesterday. Though I usually only observe her trying to move and their tails being wrapped around eachother (not locked and sometimes tightly, mostly by the tail). Usually though it appears the known male is pursuing the supposed female, if they aren’t calm it’s usually a chase and I sometimes saw entwining, it was mega obvious yesterday in the viv that they were wrapped, especially further down the body like by the tails, with no locking even when it seemed they might or it was prime position. If she escaped his grip, he would be purposefully try to regain it. Twitch twitch, chase and grab, but no calming down and letting go once aligned, no locking and no attempts, just gripping the other. I opened the viv to seperate I think 10 minutes in (had to move something upstairs) and she flew out into my hand and got calmer almost instantly, he didn’t/doesn’t zoom out as she does.
I SWEAR the same day I got that photo posted previously I saw her glands poke out of her tail a little bit ( no hemipenes, but if I had to make an educated assumption, I thought she was scenting to get his attention. And they locked not long after with no concerning actions like what seems usual for them).
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Apologies I somehow didn’t see your response first.
I haven’t done a scale count but I have probed. The male everted his hemipenes before I even started, but I probed him later and he probed pretty deep so he’s obvious. The questionable one probed about where it could be either or. (Very shallow male or deep female). I meant to send her she diff but it got tossed by my partner on accident, so I’ve gotta wait for another one.
I did see the few videos but the comments and descriptions left it confusing still. (People claiming it’s mating when they can’t even see the tails in the video, videos being labeled mating but it looks like fighting etc.) Figured I would ask here though to confirm.
I will definitely be probing her again and trying the scale count as well as sending in her shed when she sheds next. I’ll post a photo here once my partner can help me get them. Gonna be really behind if she turns out to be a he. 
Already have one extra male because of the same missexing issue, another that’s supposed to be an adult female is gonna be a huge wrench.
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Sounds like the question is answered. Yay!
The old teacher in me feels the need to attempt come clarification for possible future reference.
This sounds like normal mating behavior (emphasis mine). From what I understand, aggressive behavior would be more front-focused, if that makes sense. If the wrapping is mostly the snakes’ caudal halves, that seems likely to be mating attempts.
I’m unclear what you mean by this. If you are maybe thinking that the hemipenes of a male who’s trying to mate might be obvious or everted, that isn’t the way it works. Snakes go about mating very differently from mammals. The male may temporarily evert his organs for a few seconds before actively pursuing the female but when the chase is on, the hemipenes are hidden. The actual penetration happens so quickly you probably will miss it, then they freeze. When they’re locked, you will see a small portion.
10 minutes isn’t very long. I would put them together when you have an hour to observe. One quickly leaving the scene when you open the bin after such a short time isn’t really indicative of anything.
Again, sounds like they snakes themselves have answered your question. Best of luck!
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Yeah the mentioned lock was a month ago, and the only successful one I’ve caught. The vigorous twitching and her racing away just worries me, I spose I’m not use to how it looks since most pairing videos show them calmly cozying up within an hr and I was worried she would get hurt (some movements looked like fighting but this is only the first rodeo so I don’t have much experience in determining fight vs mating). It MIGHT have been longer than 10 mins, all I did was move an enclosure upstairs, reset it up, and keep an eye on them, but it definitely wasn’t even a half hr bc I was concerned.
Sorry I defaulted to descriptors to describe what they were doing on my rush to reply before I went back to work.
Would it be ok to record the next pairing and share it here? I just want to be MEGA sure all’s well since they are SO energetic usually and even the twitching is intense compared to my others. (Though the twitch intensity seems to vary in all my snakes so I wonder if these two are just particularly dramatic with the twitching,while my others are not as dramatic).
Thank you all for your patience 
The anxiety is high and I just want to know as much as I can, and make sure I’m not missing something that could be dangerous. As lovely as it would be to get a clutch, I mostly want to make sure they are ok and healthy.
(A bummer, sure, if I don’t get one this year either, but I’m not mad about it. Just worried about them and maybe overthinking as usual).
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You’re right that individuals do vary in behavior, and they can also behave differently with different partners. For instance, I’ve got one male who can be very actively enthusiastic. He’ll pursue a female who moves away and try to convince her. Another male is such a “gentleman” that a female’s slightest effort at evasion is going result in his curling up shyly in a corner. Except with one particular girl, whom he apparently finds so attractive that she overcomes all of his shyness.
Seeing a video ofthe behavior would certainly be helpful in us maybe helping figure out what’s happening.
Don’t worry, your caring and concern comes through clearly. It’s very commendable! 
The usual way videos are shared on MorphMarket is by posting to YouTube and sharing the link here. I’m not a tech person, so I’ll call for Thomas and Riley who can clarify and/or correct me on this. Halloooo @eaglereptiles and @lumpy!
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Just wanted to update everyone that Summer (the Hypo Caramel that MIGHT be a male) has shed and I am sending the shed in for testing.
The scale count leans female but was on the verge of tipping male, and the re-probing was inconclusive. So I’ll have an accurate answer soon enough 
.
(I also kept forgetting to take the tail photos when my helper was around 
, so apologies for never grabbing those.)
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The shed didn’t work out 
. First time anyone’s shed has been unusable for DNA extraction. I pulled it out the morning after they shed and dried as normal, packaged up a huge peice to be sure there was a good area and sent once dry. Not sure how it degraded so fast as to not be determinable unless maybe the post office damaged the package and it got wet with all the rain at the time (a few weeks ago), but now I have to wait for them to shed again.
(Have sent numerous sheds before hand, some sitting out or in the enclosure longer than this one did, and none have been unreadable. I’m not sure what happened to make it un-usable)
It’s gonna be a long year of trying to confirm their sex with them not interested in breeding and the other methods coming up as “either or”. 
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Sorry to hear it wasn’t usable, however definitely isn’t the first time anyone’s shed has been unusable. It’s happened to others as well, at least with some of the ball python tests. Better luck next time getting a shed sent in!
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That’s a bummer, I’m sorry.
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Got a successful test back. She is in fact a male 
I am SUPER male heavy now and have to decide which of the two I will keep. A shame though, I was excited for the pos hets. Hoped they just weren’t feeling it and the sexing was correct, since they were originally bought from a bigger/well known breeder when yearlings.
Gonna have to start purchasing proven females/pairs only if I ever want to get started lol.
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Sorry to hear that the results didn’t end up in your favor, sometimes sexing mistakes happens and it sucks to find out years later. This is part of why I DNA test any supposed females I produce. It’s a bit of an extra cost, but it allows me to give customers a more definitive answer. I’ve got a “male” in my collection that refuses to breed, I’m waiting on a shed so I can have a test done to see if he was mis-sexed, or if he’s just infertile/stubborn.
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Dang, I’m sorry those were not the results you wanted! But at least now you know what the issue was.
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Yeah, I bought thise 2 as an adult pair, so I couldn’t get them sexed sooner myself as I would have if I was the one who bought them as babies. Sucks now bc I have 4 males, and 2 females, only one of which is a breeder (other one too young still) and is skipping this year.
They’re both still healthy though which is great of course. Hopefully your mail does what he needs to do or maybe he’ll turn out female lol. I know my one male that I was experimentally pairing is hesitant but I think he just needs more time to grow. He’s already been confirmed mail too so at least that part I know for sure.
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I’m sorry. I’m glad you know, at least. It’s always sad to have to rearrange breeding plans for reasons beyond your choice or control. It’s super frustrating to have hopes for years then find out you’ve got to alter expectations.
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