Rest In Peace, Ziyah

I checked, and it was the University of Florida.
They are pretty good for the PCR testing of reptarenavirus, but a Necropsy is a different story.

I did have tissues from adults taken and shipped off, (when dealing with adult BI’s, it can get expensive quick) so doing tissues on them was easiest.
This was done on animals that were euthanized after receiving positive results.
I want to say that was done on the opposite side of the country out in CA…

Not sure on how good they are, other than that is who my vet trusted.

Other than that, I don’t have much to tell, other than I think I know less now about IBD then I did before unfortunately.
lol

There are a lot of varying beliefs on this disease, and it’s severity, and I’m still trying to figure out where I fit in all of it.

You mentioned that it had been 3 days. Unfortunately, that’s past the window where most vets will perform a necropsy on companion animals, especially when it comes to any testing, and doubly so when it comes to testing for a virus. Four days (since it’s the evening in the USA & it will be 4 days tomorrow) would be far too long for almost anything aside from the gross necropsy itself (usually you send in tissue samples for histopathology). A gross necropsy might yield some information (e.g., parasites, possibly major intussusception, etc.), but the odds of a definitive answer seem low to me. I just thought you might want to know that, if your vet had not told you. (I’m a dog/cat veterinarian.)

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I’m well aware of the time limit. On the day she died I said I wanted one, but it had been over 6 hours from her death and the vet was still hung up on IBD. She was positive that’s what Ziyah had, even though I had explained to her that she wasn’t showing any real symptoms. For these reasons she said no.

Well, since Ziyah does not have IBD, now she’s saying she can and wants to do to the necropsy. She says it’s still possible, despite the time that’s passed.

I don’t have a lot a faith in this vet any more. I’m very angry that she got so hung up on one diagnosis and wouldn’t do any research on anything else until her test came back (no matter the state of the snake). But I want this necropsy. If there’s a slight chance they can tell me anything then I think it will be worth it. I’m particularly interested in her lungs.

@taylor-s Thank you for the information. I tried asking about where the samples will be going and whatnot, but they said they didn’t know, it’s up to the vet. They didn’t really answer if I could request a place, but it sounded like no.

Well, to give your doctor a break, most people might be shocked to learn that possibly 80% of boas that test positive for the virus, are without symptoms.
Just another crazy fact.
Those that do exhibit symptoms, those are the neuro, and RI issues usually attributed with it.

After rereading my posts, I want to say that I’m not trying to insist your snake in fact had IBD.
I just wanted to shine some light on the topic, and show how little everyone, including a lot of the medical field still knows about this disease.

By saying that, I’m lumping myself right in there, and say I still no nothing about IBD, it just seems like what people might have read in a chapter in a book, doesn’t come close to covering the entire topic.

I hope what ever your vet does find gives your mind peace!

But see, my vet didn’t bother to explain that. I didn’t know that and I have done all the internet research I could. Sadly, my library is still closed, so book research wasn’t an option.

Understood!
Science is a weird field, it is always being updated, and as a result, theories change. So even in the last 10 years, info on this disease has changed quite a bit.

I can’t comment much more on theories on what might have happened to your girl. I have 0 experience with rosy boas.

Maybe you’ll learn that you have no reason to dig into IBD anymore. :slight_smile:

I agree with you absolutely- if you requested a necropsy, it’s unacceptable to deny that to a client. The only reasons to decline something like that would be if it’s a species you don’t work with or if you’re ill/practice is closed, and in those cases you make an immediate referral to someone who can help.

Necropsies with histo can be costly (though generally for good reason), but if a client makes the request & is ok with the cost, it’s unethical to turn them away, in my opinion. It’s also not ethical to refuse to do a necropsy after the normal time frame, so long as the client fully understands that there may be no answers.

I gave a presentation on snake IBD back in 2015, but I hesitate to talk about it because I’m not a herp vet and I haven’t had the opportunity to stay current on any new developments since then. I don’t want to be a source of wrong info. I was loosely planning to possibly do fresh research and a quick write-up for the forum in the future. Is that something that anyone would want to read? It probably wouldn’t be right away, but I can bump it up higher on my list if there’s a lot of interest.

Based on what you’ve said, it does sound like maybe poking around to see if there are any other qualified herp vets near you would be warranted. Here are the best places to look:

Find ARAV veterinarians
Find an ACZM vet
Find an ABVP vet- select ‘Reptile/Amphibian’ for your search
Another possible resource

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Thank you and yes, I’m sure tons of people would be interested, myself included.

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I’m so sorry for the loss of your beautiful snake. We get so attached and it feels like a family member has left us. Take care and may she Rest In Peace! 𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙 𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙𓆙

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Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it deeply.

I’m absolutely heartbroken for your loss. Such a beautiful little snake she was, and that’s really unfair of the vet to deny necropsy only 6 hours after death. I really hope you can recover from this loss, and I’m deeply sorry.

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Thank you. I appreciate your kindness.

Ok, this is the very last update.

Necropsy results came in. The vet found nothing. Absolutely nothing. She wants to charge me $297 + $75 for shipping to have samples tested for IBD.

I’m not going through with it. We already proved it wasn’t IBD and I don’t have over $300 to spare for another negative IBD result, and also, that price isn’t worth testing JUST for IBD. They made it very clear to me that this was the ONLY thing they would test for.

I do not understand why they are so focused on IBD. How many times do we have to prove it’s not? It’s pretty infuriating. They act like IBD is the only thing it could be and they won’t let it go and they will mash all the puzzle pieces together to get that answer.

Anyway. If I were to get another rosy boa, how long do you think I should wait? I have read that IBD sticks around for 1 to 2 years even after you’ve sanitized and cleaned. We don’t even know what caused Ziyah’s death. Who knows how long it’ll stick around for. Would it be safer to just not own a rosy boa ever again?

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I wouldn’t say to not get one ever again! But I would take all the precautions I could to prevent any risks.

I would also be angry at that vet, especially with how adamant they’re being about a diagnosis that was proven wrong. Also, if they were so sure it was IBD, wouldn’t the necropsy have proved that had they done it to begin with? Or would IBD not have shown up?

They said they would have to send off brain tissue to prove IBD after death. I imagine the frozen blood is damaged and unable to be run/ extracted for a blood IBD test.

My information is limited since they seem to only want to frame it as IDB. But idk about tissue being affected by IBD. I’ll do a quick look.

Edit::. Anything I read says it’s basically the snake’s system turning on itself, no physical damage to tissues.

Here is a thread about arenavirus. Compare the symptoms listed here with what your snake experienced.

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There’s not much.

Respiratory infection, absolutely.
Some neurological disfunction, yes.
It is believed to have been triggered by brumation, so temperature issue, yes, sort of.

But nothing else.

That thread mentioned thin membranes, mucus… Mine had none of that. They found literally nothing when they finally got around to it.

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I’m so so sorry for your loss. I’m not sure how much your vet knows about arenavirus/IBD. While rosies can technically get it, I if recall right the instance is very low (or not yet studied as intently) and I’m not sure if the rosy strains are always the same as the strains affecting the snakes in the boa genus. Blood is definitely more accurate than swabs for a live animal, but all samples should be sent out to a legitimate lab with arenavirus primers in order to run the appropriate PCR(s). Right now University of Florida is at the forefront of arenavirus research and that’s where my vet and I send all my samples.

The issue with diagnosing arenavirus without proper testing is that it doesn’t manifest the same way in every snake it occurs in. The early symptoms are highly varied and a snake may experience one or multiple as they begin to decline. Not only that, these symptoms will also present with a myriad of other disease processes so having them does not immediately equate to a snake having arena/IBD.

|-|Lethargy and listlessness
|-|Anorexia (refusal to feed)
|-|Anemia
|-|Stomatitis (mouth rot)
|-|Frequent regurgitation
|-|Rapid weight loss
|-|Respiratory infections, especially if they reoccur or do not respond to treatment
|-|Secondary bacterial infections, especially if they reoccur or do not respond to treatment
|-|Pneumonia
|-|Rapid shedding
|-|Inability of the snake to properly shed itself
|-|Sudden death

If the snake is actually arenavirus positive, and if the virus penetrates the blood-brain barrier (which exists to keep viruses and foreign bodies out of the brain), encephalitis (swelling of the brain) may develop. This can lead to the neurological symptoms most are familiar with, that immediately proceed death. They include:

  • Corkscrewing
  • Disorientation
  • Tremors
  • Seizures
  • Stargazing
  • Inability for the snake to right itself
  • Weakness
  • Paralysis in the rear third of the body

Unfortunately, the problem with diagnosing arena/IBD from neurological symptoms alone is that all of these neuro symptoms can arise from other issues not related to IBD. These include:

|-|Severe dehydration
|-|Overheating (or other temperature issues)
|-|Bacterial infection
|-|Parasitic infection
|-|Fungal infection
|-|Exposure to toxins
|-|Toxicosis (insecticide poisoning)
|-|Metabolic issues
|-|Traumatic Injury
|-|Genetic defects
|-|Encephalitis or other brain issues unrelated to arena
|-|Other viruses such as Ophidian Paramyxovirus, Sunshine virus, etc.

Thus, testing is important to help rule out arenavirus as the underlying cause.

For animals that die, there is a slightly different protocol. If found soon enough bodies should be stored in the refrigerator, which gives you roughly a 3 day window to do a necropsy. After that the decomposition is generally too far along for the vet to find anything useful. Now, here’s where a lot of folks get tripped up: a necropsy alone cannot diagnose arena/IBD. Necros are helpful for looking at overall structural abnormalities and for taking tissue samples. Once samples are taken, a histopathology needs to be done. This usually requires sending out samples taken during a necropsy to a experienced pathologist’s lab. From there, the pathologist can determine the kind of disease process, the extent of the disease process, they will be able to identify if there are any inclusions present in cells, and if those are the inclusions that are specific to arena/IBD. At the end, if you wish to absolutely confirm a pathologist’s finding of arena/IBD, you can have one of the necro samples sent to the University of Florida lab for PCR testing. Brain, liver, kidney, or any other affected tissue may be sent, and that’s usually discussed with your vet beforehand.

All that said, for your vet to be fixated on IBD without significant evidence is rather unreasonable… but having a tissue sample sent to UF for PCR testing in itself is not unreasonable.

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Thank you for laying this out so nicely. You did a beautiful job.