You cant say it is untrue because I first hand have bought snakes listed or advertised as picky eaters from different breeders.
This tickled me quite a bit! It did get a bit messy up in here…
Let’s do this one please guys.
We don’t have any “elites” here… A few pros, yes, but no elites. Everyone’s on a level playing field here, which is why we have so few threads go downhill like this. No ones here to prove anything, we’re friends whether we agree or not with each others opinions… But, with that said, let’s forget being humble here for the sake of adding weight to words…
Mary, there are what, maybe two handfuls of people in the world that have cared for more snakes than yourself and Grant. You have likely had more snakes go off and back on food than most will ever hold. I think it’s fair to call your experience and advice “expert” level. Between you and Shaun, yous have more data to back it than most of the community have between us.
If you guys are gonna tell me this is a bad idea then I’m personally gonna take that advice and would encourage others to do the same.
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I’m fairly new to keeping/breeding myself, since I got my first ball python back in mid-late 2018.
Never have I had to assist feed an already established snake. It just isn’t necessary — if any of my snakes are not eating, it is usually due to known reasons (seasonal changes, breeding, gravid females) and thus I have no reason to worry. There’s only been certain circumstances where it wasn’t something expected.
There was one time I had a few snakes regurgitate and others start refusing food in one of my racks… turned out the thermostat quit working and wasn’t heating the heat tape in the racks anymore. Once I replaced it, they all went back on food without any issue (of course I skipped a feeding for the ones who regurged)
I also had an adult female that would just not eat, no matter what I tried… then I moved her into a smaller tub, and she started eating again. She just didn’t feel comfortable in the larger tub, despite it being the recommended for a female her size.
With hatchlings, I typically will begin attempting assist feeding if they don’t take within a few weeks after their first shed. They aren’t established yet, and so it’s sometimes necessary to get them started. I had to assist feed three hatchlings my first season, and they all eventually started eating on their own.
If you have one, or even multiple, established snakes go off of food for no discernible reason, then it is likely an issue with your husbandry and/or the snake(s) in question are ill.
Especially if they start dropping weight rapidly, then it is definitely a concern and needs to be addressed ASAP!
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There is other reasons to assist feed. I will give one example. A snake is raised to an sub adult on live rats. The snake stops eating. The breeder doesnt have time to work with the snake to find why it stopped eating. They decided to sell the snake as a picky eater. I buy the snake. Live rodents are not readily available in my location. I dont have much choice but to feed frozen/thawed. The snake hides in a ball anytime food is put near her. All conditions are as good as it gets. I took the snake to the vet. The vet found no issues. That doesnt mean there werent any but none were found. After trying to feed for a few more weeks I finally tried assist feeding. I tried with a large mouse. It did not work. The snake released the mouse as soon as it was set down. The next week I tried a pinkie mouse. The snake took the pinkie. The next week I did a fuzzy. The snake took the fuzzy. She was stuck on fuzzies for a few weeks. I then decided to try a medium mouse. At this point the snake would almost open her mouth by herself to take mice. She now eats on her own and is healthy. So in this case I did what I could do. I did what I felt was right. My decision worked in my favor. Since then I have bought 5 more snakes listed as problem eaters. I also have the issue of live rodents just arent available. So any sub adult to adult I buy is gonna fight the change. So that method also helped me get a couple adults on thawed feeders. So all I know is it works for me. If it doesnt work for you that is fine, but to say there are no reasons to assist feed an adult snake is simply incorrect.
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A bit off topic here, but perhaps as a new breeder, antagonising the community and staff is a bad decision. I get you have your opinion, but your disregard for civil discussion and trolling only ends one way. You literally have the option to just not respond if you have nothing left to say.
Im not going to state my opinion on the topic at hand, as you have made it very clear you do not care what others think on it.
I have disagreed with @saleengrinch on multiple occasions, we discussed our differing opinions politely and moved on. The difference is attitude. I heard what he had to say, addressed the points i disagreed with, and respectfully disagreed. Your first response was “nobody asked you”. That is why everyone is mirroring your attitude and coming down on you like the bad guy. If you had a different opinion, they would just state they disagree and why, without attacking your character. You painted a target on your own back with how you reacted.
Ive been here for over a year as a person getting ready to breed, im not an elite, ive produced 0 animals. I have 28 animals in my care when i started at 0, my enclosures have gone from basic cypress to all bioactive and im finally getting close to producing my first clutch, and at no point did ANY person here attack me when i made mistakes, they NEVER went after me for having a different opinion. If we disagreed, it was as simple as that. Look at your own posts and try to figure out why you felt it appropriate to act the way you did to people who were simply expressing an opinion you disagreed with. Yes, we use the respond and quote feature to put up points we disagree with. Its not an attack, its a response that links the relevant post for the ease of readers.
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Thats why I like this better then FB groups. The only reason Im still in them is to help people when I can.
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Just the same as you don’t know us or our experiences. I’ve been breeding exotic animals for 20 years. Ball pythons for almost half of that time. I’ve hatched and raised well over 500 ball pythons. Mary @wreckroomsnakes has produced far more. We shared experience, and we shared science, but that appears not to be good enough.
The only time to assist feed a ball python is if it’s never eaten before. If you assist feed an established animal, you’ve hammered the switch so to speak. They aren’t pet rocks, they have the full weight of evolution behind them. If husbandry is good, they’re either sick, or have chosen not to eat, it’s that simple.
Force feeding a non feeding adult is in essence, ignoring the problem that’s causing it not to feed. Or just brute force feeding an animal that is not ready. 12 months off food is absolutely nothing to a healthy, established ball python. I know of a female that went 18 months without eating in a friends collection and went on to breed the rest of her life. Our patience and their metabolism have nothing in common.
Over the years I’ve had several bal python fast for 8-12 months upon bringing them home. They don’t like change. It can take sub-adult/adult ball pythons several years to re-establish good feeding habits when they change collections. I have a 10 year old Genetic Stripe female that didn’t eat for 10 months when I brought her home and only at 6 times total in a 3 year period.
Some of us are speaking from a position of a lot of experience with these animals. It’s disingenuous to pick at all of us by calling us ‘pro elites’ and such. We’ve put a lot time and energy into this hobby and community over a span of a lot of years.
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Once @danielbea122 replies to the topic with more information, we can then focus on helping them.
Your entire response above seems more like " well it was more convienient for me" rather than what was actually good for the animal.
This is something that many breeders find out of the years. Sub-adults and adults can and will typically take months up to a yr or more to get reestablished with eating on a regular bases. For healthy well maintained animals this is nothing and not a reason to panic or start " assisting them" You will hear this over and over from breeders, they take time to adjust and will eventually get going on their own.
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I’ve been given snakes that were “problem feeders” only for it to turn out the snake started eating just fine once in my care.
Which tells me the person who had them before me wasn’t giving them the proper husbandry/setup and the snake was likely too stressed to eat consistently.
I saw the tank that one was kept in and it was definitely not cluttered enough for a ball python to be comfortable in.
Such a snake is this gal:
Said she was too scared of live prey and wouldn’t take it, and a picky, inconsistent eater.
I offered her a live mouse after she had a bit of time to settle in. She took it. And the following times I’ve fed her. She has not refused a meal for me.
There has only been one snake that I just could not get to eat consistently (very defensive animal at that, so likely just extremely stress prone) and the breeder had sold him to my fiancé knowing he was a problem eater but failed to disclose it beforehand.
I ended up selling him as I didn’t really want a super defensive snake in my collection that is a poor feeder… not traits I want potentially bred into hatchlings!
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I don’t believe it is responsible to get an animal that has the possibility of needing to feed on live animals, without access to them or willingness to feed them. This is not a legitimate reason to assist feed and it was more just you not being able to be bothered to provide proper food for your animal. You are in Florida, there are plenty of places you can go to get live feeders if you actually cared to. Would you need to drive a bit? Maybe, but if it is for the health and wellbeing of the animal, then you should be ready to do it. Even people in the UK (where they have laws around live feeding) are allowed to if it is for the health of the animal. Please do not get an animal if you are not 100% prepared to care for and feed it properly. It isn’t fair or good for the animals.
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Where are you located @nextdayreptiles. If you are close to me, I know of places that provide live feeders even though they say they sell fresh killed. If you want, just being nice if you ever need to feed a live or want to start a colony. If you want I can PM you.
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Wanted to add to this, but couldn’t because thread limitations:
But honestly. Just because you’ve assist fed adults and it “worked” for you, doesn’t mean that’s the gold standard.
Literally everyone else is stating to do the opposite, yet you insist your way is the only correct way?
Many of these breeders/keepers are much more experienced than I am, and I would take their word any day over another newbie that is as arrogant as you’re acting. Learn some humility, or you’re not gonna get far in this hobby.
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There are only big name pet stores around me. Found a reptile store once, walked in and everything had mites. Any individuals selling are 1 1/2 to 2 hours away and have been proven to be unreliable. Ive heard the urine smell is awful. So I dont really have a space to breed rats. Also have heard of peoples snakes being bitten by rats. Im fine with frozen. I only have 30 snakes and everybody is taking the frozen/thawed. Even the ones I assist fed at one point. I dont breed right now and may never try. I do understand having hundreds of snakes would probably require feeding live. I do appreciate the offer.
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