Hey All. I know there are certain risks with allelic combos, namely cinnamon black pastel combos and super forms. For those of you with experience with allelic combos or other similar potential issues, what have you experienced? Are these issues common, rare, etc.? I love 8 balls, panda pieds, etc., but want to do my best to create healthy and viable animals. Do the deformed ones even hatch without an egg cutting? Thanks for your input everyone!!
A couple of my friends have been doing super cinny, 8 ball, and grey matter pairings for years. The number of eggs they’ve wasted and the number of viable but kinked offspring is egregious. Occasionally one of them will have a clutch with no kinks but it’s not common.
To me, strictly from a breeding standpoint, it’s a giant waste of eggs. Out of 90-120 eggs a year I might lose a few due to miscellaneous issues, but most of the 8 ball/super cinny stuff guarantees that you’re going to in each clutch. It also pretty much guarantees that you’ll eventually end up with something you have to euthanize.
8 Likes
Super cinnamon, super black pastel and 8 ball all have a tendency to produce hatchlings that have duckbills and/or kinks. They’re deformed as a result of the morph combo, not due to egg cutting, incubatation temperature, or anything else people like to blame it on. I’m not sure the exact prevalence of defects as breeders who make this combo aren’t always honest about about how many they end up having to euthanize. From breeders I know who have been forthright and upfront about the outcome of these crosses, I have yet to see a clutch that hasn’t required at least one hatchling to be euthanized.
If you want to make dark snakes, Suma combined with a single cinnamon/black pastel/GHI morph yields a very similar looking black snake without the risk of defects
8 Likes
Thanks @ballornothing maybe I could just purchase one from a breeder that’s proven healthy and not try this combo myself… haven’t done it yet, so its not “too late” or anything. I’d hate to be responsible for creating an animal that needs euthanized from something I could have controlled (things happen, but would prefer not to be the responsible party for it…) appreciate your input and advice! Had similar advice from the good folks who bred a few of my balls who bred bp x bp once and said they had multiple issues.
2 Likes
Thank you @chesterhf its much appreciated! I replied with similar info to @ballornothing but I appreciate knowing this. It seems people try to hide the problems they create and only showcase their successes, so transparency in the hobby is always really good to hear about and to know. Definitely want to avoid the risk of creating an animal I’d need to put down. I’ve got a cinnamon champagne boy, so maybe I can find a nice girl to pair him to for next season!
1 Like
No problem. Given that your male also contains champagne, you may also want to avoid pairing him to anything in the spider complex as some of those combos are lethal/result in a severe wobble
5 Likes
Definitely!! I just wanted one copy of champagne to work with, not planning to add anything else spider complex to work on! Thanks, I’m excited to start on some new combos and ideas. Recessives are really attractive to me.
1 Like
If you really are concerned about the deformed/euthanized animals I’d consider not purchasing one either. You’re just paying someone else to deal with the euthanasia and causing them to breed more to sell. Just to give a different perspective to think about.
Super Mahogany is a very similar combo although it’s a little more expensive.
3 Likes
That’s a great point, thanks so much and everyone else too. The issues seem to be much more common than is generally talked about without deep diving… mahogany seems like it would be a great addition!
I’ve hatched one good super black pastel to like 11 bad. The super cinny slash black pastel is probably one of the most problematic of all the combos imo. I would definitely avoid breeding them and I wouldn’t support someone who is comfortable breeding them with all the risks associated by buying one.
6 Likes
thanks @saleengrinch for your help! this is an excellent point. I’ll keep enjoying both of these genes, but I’ll keep them separate in my breeding plans. 
would you have any recommendations or thoughts given my current breeders for what could be good to add into the plans? I really like recessives and I do plan to add albino and pied, possibly sunset, but I currently have 1.0 banana leopard, 1.0 cinnamon champagne, .1 mojave, and .1 super pastel pinstripe fire.
thanks!!
SuMa are not as dark when they mature (though neither are SuperBlks for that matter). Your best bet if you want a a truly dark animal is to go with a multi-combo.The SuMa GHI (aka Abyss) is fairly dark as a hatchling but the adult pics I have seen show that it has developed a bit of pattern. SuMa Cinny say pretty dark. I would bet that SuMa Blackhead would be a dark animal and you could also try for SuperBH SuMa which ought to be dark…
I have an Acid Blackhead BlkPastel that is crazy dark. This is her a couple years ago but she pretty much looks the same now
I would bet that adding in something like GHI and/or Mahogany would make it completely black
6 Likes
wow she is beautiful! What a rad animal, definitely would love working with something like this! Thanks for your feedback too. It looks like I may want to turn some of my attention to mahogany, GHI, and blackhead. also the acid gene is really rad. I really appreciate yours and everyone else’s feedback!
1 Like
Dope!! Definitely need to turn my attention this direction!
1 Like
