There is zero evidence of bongo having an issue with health or QOL. This is the problem I have with things being labeled “spider complex” 
people automatically assume problems exist
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That would be a fair assumption as everything proven in the spider complex does have some problem. We thought blackhead was an exception, then more supers were made.
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I can honestly say out of all the bongos and bongo combinations that I have produced over the years that I have never had any with a wobble or any type of quality of life issues. These are the first supers that I have made so I can’t say for sure on the supers, however, I have never heard of any issues with them as well. All I can say is we also all assumed that desert ghost was a simple recessive
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I haven’t seen anything on het bongos wobbling, but there are a lot of rumors that super bongo might/does wobble. I haven’t found any evidence of that so far. IF the super does wobble, it could be a situation where it doesn’t always show it
I don’t think there’s a gene in the spider complex that hasn’t had at least a few animals wobbling in some form (het or hom). I’ve even seen a few people saying they’ve had some super chocolates that wobble. I actually don’t think I’ve seen anyone mention a super wookie wobbling, but like bongo, not many supers have been made.
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Looks like this thread has gotten a little stale. Has anyone gotten any new information on whether Bongo is in the Spider complex? I came here hoping to learn how Bongo reacts with Spotnose, Chocolate, Black Head, and Cypress, since Justin mentioned them being allelic in a recent video and I hadn’t heard before that Bongo was (or might be, I guess - looks like the jury is still out?) part of that complex.
Since I have all of these genes in my collection now, I’m just trying to check for potential issues so that I can choose my pairings wisely.
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I’m trying to find any official posts, but Proherper seems to believe they’re allelic as well as Ball Python Genetics Canada
From ProHerper’s youtube video:
From ProHerper’s morph test page:
From Ball Python Genetics Canada:
And actually, that same video from ProHerper confirms that chocolate and wookie are indeed different mutations!
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Heather’s data do indicate that Bongo is genetically part of the Spider complex
Through “unofficial” channels and conversations, I am hearing that Cypress and Blackhead are, in a very strange twist, behaving as outliers. Again, I do not have any official confirmation of this. I am trying to reach someone that will speak pure science with me, but the whole commercial aspect of this makes people really tight-lipped which frustrates the ever-loving hockey sticks out of a nerd like me
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By “behaving as outliers,” do you mean that Cypress might be another gene that seems to sort of work in the opposite direction of Spider, Champagne, Spotnose, etc.? Like how I’ve heard Black Head does?
That would be very interesting!
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That’s exactly what I was looking for! Thanks so much!!
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No, I am not talking about the phenotype, I am talking about genetic location
Think of a gene as a sentence. If you have a mutation, you have a change in the sentence. Alleles are different changes but they all happen within the same sentence.
Think of a gene as a sentence. If you have a mNtation, you have a change in the sentence. Alleles are different changes but they all happen within the same sentence.
Think of a gene as a sentence. If you have a mutation, you have a hange in the sentence. Alleles are different changes but they all happen within the same sentence.
Think of a gene as a sentence. If you have a mutation, uoy have a change in the sentence. Alleles are different changes but they all happen within the same sentence.
Think of a gene as a sentence. If you have a mutation, you have a change in the sAntence. Alleles are different changes but they all happen within the same sentence.
Think of a gene as a sentence. If you have a mutation, you have a change in the sentInce. Alleles are different changes but they all happen within the same sentence.
Think of a gene as a sentence. If you have a mutation, you have a chang in the sentence. Alleles are different changes but they all happen within the same sentence.
Outliers are when the changes you are looking for appear to be hoppin in a completely different sentence
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Will this thread be updated to add Bongo to the Spider Complex or are we waiting for something?
A few other changes should also be done:
- Mystic & Phantom have been proven to be the same mutation.
- Rare Genetics found that Monarch and Ultramel are on different chromosomes, so I guess we can remove those from the watch list.
- Black Pastel and Barnhart Black Pastel have been found to be different mutations.
- Special and
NOCOTCR Special are different mutations. - TSK & Black Axanthic are the same mutation [source]
- Desert Ghost & Enhancer are the same mutations.
and these are very likely, but not yet definitive:
- GCR & MJ Axanthic are very likely to be the same mutation.
- Acid & Confusion are different mutations, but are very likely to be allelic [source]
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I assume they’re just working on it but slowly. There have been a few other updates elsewhere on the site. Just not @owalreptiles here to update for the new findings yet.
The morphipedia is updated for Enhancer and DG.
The popup on the ads for Mystic and Phantom say they’re genetically identical
Barhhart Blk Pastel has been split into it’s own morph on the traits list
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This has not been sufficiently investigated. It is TCR and Baker that are known to be different
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I know! I figured it might be helpful to compile all the information here
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Huh. I’m not sure what happened. For some reason I remembered that it was NOCO, but going back to the video it is about TCR. Weird. I must’ve mixed them up because TCR looks like NOCO (I’m betting they’ll prove to be the same, though)
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Yeah, Ben and I discussed (with Sara from TCR) how their line and NoCo line look very similar and are suspected to be the same
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I suppose it’s too late to petition that the spider complex be called something without “spider” in the name? It’s just got so much baggage and probably one of the least seen members now.
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That baggage is the same reason I think it should still be named spider complex.
Other morphs in that complex wobble. It’s not exclusive to spider.
I also don’t know how that’s the ‘least seen’ when there are over 1,100 for sale at the moment.
That’s more than double the amount of any other individual gene in the complex except spotnose at 1,400.
And if you want to say we should rename it to spotnose complex, then you would still have to tell people that Super spotnose will wobble. =/
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Really surprised anyone is still breeding spiders. Are lots of them older animals? I’ve never noticed any issues with chocolate.
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Super chocolate wobbles.
I’ve seen an even mix of babies and adult spiders for sale at the last couple of shows I’ve been at.
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