Allelic Morphs aka Complexes [Ball Pythons]

I’ve always had to sell my super chocolates but hadn’t noticed wobbles while I had them.

Every now and then I stumble on a spider combo for sale and it’s listed less than it would have been without spider so was hoping people had stopped breeding them at least for business reasons.

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I actually made a spider chocolate pastel years ago but don’t remember if she wobbled, just good looking. Had no idea they might be alleles back then. Shame about spider as they are nice to look at and the wobble thing wasn’t discussed as early as it should have been.

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Haven’t noticed any wobble yet in this 2023 holdback blackhead chocolate pastel.

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FYI I’m getting this girl tested for chocolate just in case and there is no blackhead test yet. Just pointing out I THINK she is a chocolate blackhead pastel but not actually proven yet.

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@t_h_wyman - Maybe I’m missing a crucial piece of info in my understanding of genes and mutations and alleles. If mutations are allelic, doesn’t that mean that they are happening in the same sentence, to stick with your analogy?

So, I mean, I think you’re saying that you’ve heard Black Head behaves as an outlier, which means the mutation occurs in a different location to Spider, Spotnose, etc. But then, they are allelic, which means they occur in the same location, genetically. Right? What am I missing, if you have time to enlighten me?

Yes, but also, no (clear as much, right? LOL)

This is one of those weird genetic things that you do not get in basic genetics courses…

Give me a couple days and I will loop back. I am trying to think of a good way to articulate it without going all woo-woo…

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Haha, I see. Well, I look forward to learning some more advanced genetics, in that case! Thank you for taking the time to help me understand. :heart: I appreciate it very much.

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Okay… Back to take a stab at this

I have not come up with a good “science-free” analogy so we are going to have to get a little in the weeds here, please bear with me

First, and most importantly, I AM NOT REFERENCING A BALL PYTHON GENOME HERE!! I had to find something that roughly applied and that I had a passing familiarity with so that I knew I was not talking out my own backside. I am not claiming that this is the absolute answer for these ball genes in question. This is just a possible explanation using another organism as reference

With that out of the way…

This graphic represents a cluster of genes known as an operon

Operons are clusters of related genes that are all involved in a single process. In this specific operon, every one of these genes is necessary for the production of a single end product

Because all of the genes play an important role, they tend to be regulated as a complete unit. Frequently, that regulation happens at the role of transcription (copying DNA into RNA). One of the ways this is accomplished is having a single start point for transcription that creates a single RNA containing all the genes in the operon instead of making multiple smaller transcripts. Think of it kind of like copying a whole chapter out of a book in one go as opposed to copying each individual paragraph, one at a time, on different sheets of paper

If we look at the graphic again, let us say the identified mutations all fall in the gene labeled vbs. Without vbs, the critical product of the operon is never made and so we see a mutant phenotype

So… What about the outliers?

What happens if I throw a mutation in the small space between norB and cypA? Conventional “herp hobby wisdom” is that it does not matter because those genes are completely unrelated to vbs

But…

Remember what I said above about operons being transcribed as a single uint?

What if the mutation between norB and cypA results in the transcription process stopping there? In that case, vbs (along with a bunch of other things) will not get made, and so we see a mutant phenotype again

And if I have an animal that carries one chromosome with the mutation to vbs and another chromosome with a mutation between norB and cypA, what will the offspring from that animal come out as?

Half of them will inherit the vbs mutation and the other half will inherit the norB and cypA spacer mutation.

This outcome would basically mirror what you would see if you had an animal carrying two different mutant copies of vbs, right?

So… This then would be an example of how mutations can be non-allelic while still behaving in an allelic manner

Does that make sense??

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Oh, very interesting!! I think I might have to read that a few more times to really wrap my head around it, but yes, I think it does make sense. That’s fascinating.

Thank you again very much for taking the time to write this out and help me (and others) to understand!

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New recessive gene proven to be allelic with Albino Candy/Toffee
although not completely isolated we have proven time and time again that our gene is allelic with albino Candy/Toffee.

We have visual dbl het Dark Matter Albinos and have just recently proved a male that we produce to be het Dark Matter. (please see post in the link)
https://community.morphmarket.com/t/proven-out-het-dark-matter-allelic-with-albino-candy-new-recessive/47135?u=new_gene_balls

the pairing of these animals was Black Pastel Albino (dam) x dbl het Dark Matter Pied (sire) in the picture below you can see the following.
3 x Black Pastel visual dbl het Dark Matter Albino, aka BP Dark Sun (2 still in egg)

2 x Visual dbl het Dark Matter Albino, aka Dark Sun Black pastel het Albino Het Albino

We have been working on this project for 6 years and I can categorically state that if you pair a Dark Sun to visual Albino or Candy/Toffee you will never produce a normal, just more Dark Suns or Albino, Candy /Toffee.

The Sire to the clutch was produced from pairing a Pinstripe Pied to a Dark Sun, so he was either going to prove out het Albino or het Dark Matter and he proved out het Dark Mattter.

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Just for ease of clarity, the more preferred term here is “visual heteroallelic:+1:t4:

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Would the lovely Dr. Wyman be willing (time allowing) to explain this to those of us who have absolutely what that or the original label means?

(If not no worries, you’ve got a lot on your plate!)

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It refers to when two allelic heterozygous genes in an animal result in a visual animal. Candy and albino, or clown and cryptic are some examples in ball pythons.

So it is het for 2 different genes but the combination of those hets results in an animal with a visual phenotype.

That or I am completely wrong

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Ohhh how interesting! So the two alleles almost act in a way as if the animal was homozygous for a recessive morph, but because it is two different hets they are not visual for those respective morphs (albino, candy) but rather a sneaky combo since they act on the same ‘spot’?

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I mean… I would have, but Logan pretty much covered it

Small clarifications I will add–
1)

It is still the same gene, it is just two different mutations to that gene. In this case we are looking at the tyr gene and we have alleles tyr-A (Albino), tyr-C (Candy), and tyr-D (DarkMatter) and your possible genetic combos are then:

A/A (homozygous Albino)
C/C (homozygous Candy)
D/D (homozygous DarkMatter)
A/C (visual heteroallelic Candino)
A/D (visual heteroallelic DarkSun)
C/D (visual heteroallelic ‘ToBeNamed’)
.
.
.
2)

This applies to all inheritance modes where the presence of two different mutant alleles give rise to a phenotype. Consider Ivory versus SuperStripe versus Freeway. Or SuperFire BlkEL versus DiscoInferno versus VanillaCreme. Or SuperButter BluEL versus Butter/Mojave BluEL versus Platty versus Crystal. Or SuperBlk versus 8-Ball versus Whiplash

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Yay! I did an OK job!

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@logar

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You did a good job, sir. My small corrections were only meant to provide clarity and not to reduce your contribution in any way :+1:t4: :+1:t4:

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Thank you to both you and @logar what a cool and unusual situation that I would never have guessed had an effect on the animal’s morph!

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