Allelic Morphs aka Complexes [Ball Pythons]

[snakehandler]

Has anyone noticed or reported that male spiders seem to express the neurological defect to a lesser degree than female spiders or vice versa? I guess that question could be for raised for any morph in the spider complex including super black heads.

[owalreptiles]

I haven’t heard something like that and even within my own experience, sex is not a variable

[snakehandler]

Thanks for the input. I don’t have a dataset, I have 2 females and 1 male. I noticed the females struggle more during feeding than the male. Didn’t think too much of it but was catching up on some old threads and noticed that when people were posting about severe wobblers they often mentioned that the animal was female. Made me wonder.

[crazy_snake_ball_python]

Copper and Mahogany the same thing…
Super Form Suco and Suma

[owalreptiles]

A lot of them I understand where youre coming from. Though I am seeing some difference in some combos, mostly the super forms. GHI Supers being the most extreme.

Xclusive Snakes

Abyss (Suma GHI) Ball Python by Circle City Constrictors - MorphMarket

Also unless I missed it, I don’t see any pairings breeding them together, just to prove combatibilty. Tho it doesn’t mean they aren’t the same. I’d personally like to see the same varabilty on both sides before we say so, which should come with time either way. I will throw it on the watch list, as it looks like there a extremely high likelyhood of them being allelic.

[t_h_wyman]

@owalreptiles

I don’t see any pairings breeding them together, just to prove combatibilty. Tho it doesn’t mean they aren’t the same

I am in agreement with Matt here - to confirm allelic relation we need to see the two bred together to generate the compound heterozygote and also breed out the potential compound heterozygote out to make sure they do not replicate the combo or a WT.

[phantom_hatchery]

The Xclusive link shows copper GHIs, not super copper GHIs

[owalreptiles]

Alright yeah I got mixed somewhere with all the tabs.

[fireflypied]

So spotnose, wookie and cypress will be allelic also.

[t_h_wyman]

Per the list that Matt posted at the very top of this thread and conversations among ourselves and other SME, that is our conclusion, yes

[inspirationexotics]

Just in case folks missed it, Ball Python Genetics Canada confirmed today that cryptic and amur are officially genetically proven to be the exact same mutation.

[soupson]

It’s not really about the list, more so, about the name of a morph.
What would you call the combination between an Enchi Candino and a Puma?

[owalreptiles]

I would just call it an Enchi Puma Candino.

[rlremington]

And those copper GHI I think look way darker than mahogany GHI. I wish I would hatch a mahogany GHI that nice looking anyway. I am very new to that project though so may be wrong on what to expect from mahogany GHI.

[wreckroomsnakes]

Bongo and spotnose have been proven not to be allelic . Myself and one other person have proved this out this is a super bongo spotnose het clown

[phantom_hatchery]

@wreckroomsnakes

Bongo and spotnose have been proven not to be allelic . Myself and one other person have proved this out this is a super bongo spotnose het clown

What was the pairing and how did the rest of the clutch turn out/what are their ID’s?

I’ve been doing a lot of research lately into trying to find evidence into if bongo is in the spider complex and I’ve actually come across a lot of people saying things along the lines of “I was going to say they’re not because I have a bongo spotnose, but looking back at my records it looks like they are.”

I’ll try and find as many sources as I can, but I may miss some that I’ve found before.

From the Bongo Ball Pythons Facebook Group:

There are a few people in that group saying they aren’t allelic, but most seem to believe they are. I haven’t found anyone who’s given statics on their bongo + spider complex pairings, unfortunately. The only ones to give their pairings at all were those ^

–

Justin also has his own complex chart that includes bongo in the spider complex (outdated, I know)

He also lists Bongo in the spider complex on this blog post https://kinovareptiles.com/2016/04/19/understanding-allelic-genes-in-ball-pythons/

I’m not sure what evidence he has to support those claims. His old incubator page is no longer available so I can’t search through that and his newest one doesn’t give any results for bongo

–

I’ve also been keeping an eye on the bongos in the “project” tab. So far only one clutch is out and updated. But one hatchling is definitely mis-ID’d and another one might be as well. Out of 5 eggs, the results of that are 2 spiders, 3 bongos, and 1 non-bongo that might actually be a bongo.

–

Going through individual listings isn’t too helpful since most people don’t put the pairings. But these are my findings:

• 17 Bongo Spotnose listings
  • 2 listed pairing, both were Bongo combo x Spotnose Combo
• 23 Bongo Spider listings
  • 4 (2 were siblings) had pairing listed as Bongo combo x Spider combo
  • 2 (siblings) had pairing listed as Bongo Spider Combo x Non-spider complex, both both are clowns and could be mis-ID’d
  • 1 had pairing as Bongo Spider Combo x Non-spider complex, but it was clearly mis-ID’d, it’s just a regular spider.
• 2 Bongo Woma listings
  • No pairings listed
• 6 Bongo Hidden Gene Woma listings
  • Somel animals look very different from each other despite being similar combos. Are most even ID’d correctly? 1 does clearly look like a HGW combo (last one).
  • 1 had pairing listed as Bongo HGW combo x Non-spider complex.
  • 1 was proven but didn’t have any pairing information or any offspring information.
  • 1 had pairing listed as HGW combo x Bongo combo
• 6 Bongo Cypress listings
  • 3 has pairing listed as Bongo combo x Cypress combo
• 4 Bongo Champagne listings
  • 0 had pairings listed
• 0 Bongo Blackhead listings
• 2 Bongo Chocolate listings
  • 0 had pairings listed
• 1 Bongo Wookie listings
  • Bongo combo x Wookie combo
• 0 Bongo Sable listings

[wreckroomsnakes]

Pairing was Pastel bongo spotnose het clown poss fire x bongo clown. Mom is pic on eggs. showns
https://www.morphmarket.com/stores/wreckroomsnakes/offspring/91321/
made 3 pastel bongo clowns bongo clown and a bongo spotnose het clown

I know of one other person who has also proved it to not allelic. he bred a banana leopard pastel clown x bongo het clown. produced bongo batman and a batman 8 eggs no other bongo or spotnose in the clutch

[armiyana]

@wreckroomsnakes

he bred a banana leopard pastel clown x bongo het clown.

Please clarify this pairing… There’s no spotnose listed?

Also… How can you be sure that the hatchling you produced isn’t possibly a super bongo pastel fire het clown? Or spotnose bongo pastel fire het clown. I’m not as familiar with the genes, but looking at a Super Bongo het pied from Garrick DeMeyer and there’s a lot of pattern on it while some are almost patternless on the sides. They seem pretty variable… We might not know for sure until more are produced…

[wreckroomsnakes]

@armiyana

Please clarify this pairing… There’s no spotnose listed?

sorry that should have read bongo spotnose clown

@armiyana

How can you be sure that the hatchling you produced isn’t possibly a super bongo pastel fire het clown? Or spotnose bongo pastel fire het clown. I’m not as familiar with the genes, but looking at a Super Bongo het pied from Garrick DeMeyer

For one any bongo with pastel when first hatched is a pewterish color. second mom is a pastel spotnose bongo poss fire het clown. third there seems to be a good bit of variation in bongos and not a lot of super bongos have been made. I have worked with this gene for several years now and produced a very wide variety of combos with them.

[wreckroomsnakes]

Pretty sure this is a super bongo pastel spotnose clown