Are enchi and cinnamon allelic?

[thecrawdfather]

Definitely resembles a super enchi. Hmmmmm. I wouldn’t think just butter would darken it like that? It’s hard to say knowing nothing about the pairing etc. I will say if it DOES exist I would think it would look something like that…

[ballpythons9]

I don’t believe this one is super enchi, I think it is potentially pastel and maybe something else at play. Maybe it’s lacking cinnamon.

[wreckroomsnakes]

really not seeing the cinnamon in this animal.

@t_h_wyman

I think anything found on WoBP should be taken with a cubic kilometer-sized grain of salt

Agree with statement 1 million times over.

[driftless36]

I have a cinny enchi spotnose female I will be pairing in the future with probably something ultramel for hets. Should be super easy to determine from that

[ryan79]

I bred a Mojave het candy to albino cinny enchi and produced this which I though was Mojave cinny enchi candino, but then people were telling me that was impossible because they are allelic. I’m not sure, but everything in the clutch was either cinny or enchi

[roundbrowndog]

I was curious about this as well. I spent a couple of seasons playing with cinnamon and enchi because I wanted to understand the variation(s) one can get when pairing those two traits…but I wasn’t specifically trying to see if they are/were co-allelic (and wouldn’t have been able to anyway with the animals I had). I kept it simple and paired a pewter with a pastel enchi so not to confuse things. From what I saw and additional reading I’ve done I definitely think the two alleles interact…but when both are present their expression seems to be variable (like an incomplete dominance). Darn it, now I’m curious lol. Gonna have to go shopping for a super enchi.

[lunarballreptiles]

I have been trying to get some SuperEnchi BlackPastel and other combos but always ended up with something without the Blanchi combo, and I’ve been breeding with Blanchi every time…

Lunar-Ball Reptiles

[mutation_creation]

To my defence, last year I bought a huge collection with over 60 breeder females that were paired before I took them. I was given what the breeding list and continued to pair what he already did so I would have no confusion, also did not have any available males from my own collection. 27 females laid and many were confusing and not what I paired. The person could have put other males in also prior to the ones that I did and followed by their instruction. Also many of the females were 5 years and older so retained sperm could of been a factor as well which I have no access to. Also, just because you breed animals together and get locks does not mean they will be the parents. I have had 3 clutches last year that were parthenogenesis clutches. I have also sold breeder females after they lay and the following year people call me and got clutches from the same pairing the years before. One thing that I do is not sell animals I have no idea what they are or sell them only as what I can see. I have sold 1000’s of snakes and not once has anyone call me and say that it was not what it was sold as. Just saying.

[thecrawdfather]

@mutation_creation Are you of the opinion they could be allelic based on what you’ve seen then?

[t_h_wyman]

Hey Billy,

Glad to see you here.

As I very specifically said:

@t_h_wyman

I am not trash talking Billy by saying this because I think he does some some interesting stuff and he might be correct […] So it is possible that what he thinks he is seeing is an artifact of those same mistake-type clutches where there was obviously a mix up somewhere

I fully understand that weird things happen. All I was doing was putting out the possibility that what you were seeing with Cinny and Enchi might be an artifact of one of those “weird things”

I, in no way, meant my comment to be a disparagement of your breeder/seller ethics. While I have never purchased from you I have always heard good things about you and I am sure that reputation is well earned.

I sincerely apologize if you felt my comment was meant as a negative reflection of you, that was not my intent

[osbornereptiles]

Here is a Cinnamon Enchi I produced several years ago.

And a Pewter Enchi from last year.

I believe what Billy is seeing are animals that had more than one male used for breeding while in the care of the previous breeder.

I set out on this project around 2011 and missed the odds many times over the last 6-7 seasons. Enchi Pieds have eluded me for years even with several pairings each year.lol

[monroemorphs]

Hearing of this recently I at first thought it was false. Looking back at one of my girls for the last two years maybe odds and maybe fact. One of the clutches one didnt make it out of the egg and was Cinnamon as well.

This year I will see the female go again as well as a male with the same combo and see what pops. Interesting video Billy and same with things like super pin or super spiders ect…what pips sometimes speaks against all debates

[lindasark]

Also nice to see that even the long known genes can still suprise us and give us new thing to try.

@lunarballreptiles so then it really sounds like all genes on the cinny complex work all like allelic with enchi. I have black pastel, cinnamon, het red axanthic and enchi in my snakes but in four different snakes and none of them are supers so it will take long before I can really test myself. But it was what got me really interested in the topic.

[t_h_wyman]

@monroemorphs

with things like super pin or super spiders ect…what pips sometimes speaks against all debates

Sadly, were that true then the argument about whether or not the dead/terminal all-white animals from Spider x Spider are SuperSpiders would have ended a decade ago and yet you still find people who refuse to accept the very plain and simple truth that SuperSpider is lethal

[superiorscalesreptiles]

I have a Black Pewter Enchi Calico breeder male. He has sired 8 different clutches for me over the last two seasons (more coming from him this year). He has never produced a normal. Enchi or Black Pastel has always been present in each baby. And he hasn’t replicated himself yet. Based off this guy’s work alone, I’d strongly agree that Black Pastel/Cinnamon and Enchi are indeed allelic. It would just be too big of a coincidence otherwise.

[t_h_wyman]

^^^
This kind of info is exactly the stuff we need. All about the numbers

[wreckroomsnakes]

@superiorscalesreptiles

I have a Black Pewter Enchi Calico breeder male. He has sired 8 different clutches for me over the last two seasons (more coming from him this year). He has never produced a normal. Enchi or Black Pastel has always been present in each baby. And he hasn’t replicated himself yet. Based off this guy’s work alone, I’d strongly agree that Black Pastel/Cinnamon and Enchi are indeed allelic. It would just be too big of a coincidence otherwise.

Thank you! This was more of what i was hoping would happen. I wanted to see people with larger amounts of clutch and offspring to come out and say Yes! or nope it isn’t.

[akmorphs]

@osbornereptiles

Here is a Cinnamon Enchi I produced several years ago.

Now that’s a good looking snake.

[monroemorphs]

I’m not disagreeing at all. Early on I did two spider to spider combo breedings and did get white snakes. Many argue they dont exist but I’m not here to argue. I’m just going to share my experiences. Will not do it again

[thecrawdfather]

@monroemorphs I’m assuming they lived? Did they prove to be super spiders? And was there any other genes involved?