Are enchi and cinnamon allelic?

I was watching today a youtube video from Mutation Creation about the cinnamon gene. Billy mentioned several times that cinnamon and enchi are allelic. So if you have a enchi cinnamon ball python all the offspring are either enchi or cinnamon but never both. He mentioned the same in a video about orange dream. Is this really true?
I googled on allelic genes but I really not even found one schedule or list in which is is mentioned they are allelic. So I’m really wondering, was he now confused or did I really miss something?

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I am finding this very interesting. For as long as these genes have been around and available on the market, you would have thought by now if they were allelic it would have been common knowledge. it would be interesting if we could get some of the larger breeders to chime in on this or @owalreptiles

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I was also very curious about this!
Following

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And he really repeated it several times. He had a fire vanilla enchi cinnamon male and was so happy with this “double allelic genes” . The fire and the vanilla and enchi and cinnamon. I even played the part 3 times to know for sure I heard it correct. I was really confused because these are both indeed not new at all.

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Just saw this!

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I’ll look into it later, but there are a few animals I’ve seen over the years being called super enchi black pastels or super enchi cinnys. Obviously those couldn’t exist if they were allelic. So someone is mistaken somewhere.

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Thanks matt, see that was my thought as well.

Yeah, I remember seeing these too but they are proving to be elusive to locate now. I have a bad feeling many of them were on the old BLBC

This really should be easy to prove out as it just requires a few Blk-complex/Enchi animals to consistently breed out and never make a normal or the combo. I have been chatting with a guy that has five clutches to this point but some of them have Blk-complex or Enchi in the other parent so it is harder to say

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The problem as I see it is super cinnamon and super black pastel are all black so how would you know if enchi was in it. Have to shoot for super enchi with one of the others.

SilverBullets (aka SuperCinny Pastels) look significantly different than regular SuperCinny so my guess is that you would be able to tell SuperCinny Enchi from a plain SuperCinny

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I have seen these indications too. I did a pairing this season pastel enchi x pastel cinn enchi. Now all animals were either enchi or cinny one super enchi. So doesn’t complete help with this. But I also however, have a pastel enchi cinny x pastel enchi cinny yb. So I’ll be interested to see what comes of this pairing. By the accounts of recent, they all should be supers and maybe double super. Eggs for this is already in the incubator so we’ll see what happens.

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Really curious what you get out of them. Hope you show them when they are born.

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Did anyone ask him that in his comment section of the video?

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If you are talking about Mutation Creation? it was in the video below. Check from minute 5.20 for the first mentioning. The second about double allelic cinnamon enchi fire vanilla starts from 7.20.

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I am not trash talking Billy by saying this because I think he does some some interesting stuff and he might be correct. But… There are a number of videos where he tells us what the pairing was and then cuts the clutch and he gets thing that are literally impossible given the pairing he claimed. So it is possible that what he thinks he is seeing is an artifact of those same mistake-type clutches where there was obviously a mix up somewhere

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So I messaged Billy and this was his reply

“I am pretty sure. With what I have seen and from others. Not 100% but pretty sure. I would wait to see if this stands true with others input”

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Here’s a clutch from JKR last year that does support the theory that they are allelic. Sire: Chocolate Clown, Dame: Enchi Cinnamon Het Clown

*Edit: It would be helpful if the mods could at least warn me after removing pics, just trying distribute helpful information in a way that’s easily accessible here on the site. Here’s a link to the removed image:
https://jkobylkareptiles.com/incubator/2019-clutch-61/#gallery-1

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Would be a pretty cool project if someone had both animals and could do it, ha-ha.

I’ve seen plenty of “world’s firsts” or “proof for x genetic behavior” that were simply misidentified. It happens. My opinion is I have seen more proof so far of them being allelic, so that’s my guess for now.

Anyway, this is supposedly a Butter Cinnamon Super Enchi, what do you all think?
Link: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/butter-cinnamon-super-enchi/

I think anything found on WoBP should be taken with a cubic kilometer-sized grain of salt

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