Hello all just looking for more info on Barnhart Black pastel Line, just hatched a clutch of Black pastel pied to black pastel Pied 4 eggs all hatch but was heart broken to see the 2 panda pieds i was so looking forward to them first try for me and it was a total BUST i can see how some people give up after that but im not gonna give up on the project I’ll be back at it for sure im no quitter these 2 guys where still active but it was a train wreak of kinks and twisted necks. if anyone has any info maybe i did something wrong or just bad pairing i have no idea i can say i have bred pandas but cant say i will even try to save them. We be back for sure.
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It’s known and very well established that black pastel x black pastel pairings often result in kinked super black pastel offspring. I’m not sure why you expected different results
I would suggest not continuing down this path only to produce more animals with this defect and instead looking into some Suma Pied projects which are not known to have the same issues
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As mentioned it’s a well documented issue with super Blk pastel or super cinny. Barnhart black pastel has been recently proven to be a different gene than black pastel, but it is still allelic and in the same complex. I’m not surprised by the result.
If you do decide to try for panda Pieds again, I would definitely not breed those two adults again seeing as it proved to bring out the kinks.
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I agree with both above. I would strongly consider looking into combinations like super mahogany pieds, mahogany black pastel pieds, blackhead mahogany pieds, etc. that can give you a similar phenotype without the danger of severe deformities.
People have claimed to have healthy animals and that incubating at lower temperatures makes them come out “fine,” but I have seen no evidence whatsoever of this actually being the case. Rather than continuing to pursue a combo that is well known to produce animals that are ftt and need to be culled, I would strongly recommend pursuing a different genetic combination if you want to pursue the black and white phenotype. While barnhart black pastel has been found to be a different individual mutation than black pastel, it is allelic/compatible and has been shown to have the exact same issues that super black pastel does. Tom Barnhart himself does not intentionally breed for supers. This issue will continue to be present if you choose to work with super bp (barnhart line or normal) or super cinnamon in any regard.
A thought for consideration: in an instance where the genetic combination of a project inherently produces a high concentration of severely deformed animals, being a “quitter” is not a bad thing. It is in fact the most ethical and considerate decision for the animals themselves.
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Im gonna have to agree with you all it time to move on them thanks you all for the comments.
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panda pied are unicorn of their own for a reason. If you don’t abandon, you will get a dream snake…
They’re unicorns because the odds of getting healthy ones that aren’t dealing with spinal kinks and mouth deformities is rare. This isn’t a combo we as a reptile community should be encouraging.
I don’t even think they’re that rare, maybe finding a healthy one is, but that shouldn’t be something we strive for when the individuals above mention so many better ways to achieve a black and white snake
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If finding this unicorn involves producing tons of deformed or stillborn hatchlings…. perhaps it’s not a unicorn anyone should search for.
Just do it with different genes. There are so many options to explore that won’t result in hatchlings that have to be culled. Mistakes are meant to be learned from, not repeated.
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for personal breeding to get your own dream snake i think it 100% ok to do just like spider .He said he want to hit one and i dont see the problem with it .Now you assume a lot about me or what i know …Literally what a written say it all but you miss it and want drama .Not my problem that you understood my phrasing that way . 
Nope, you’ve just fully reiterated the same point, which leads me to the same conclusion. You personally think making animals that result in the culling of many snakes completely acceptable.
We as a community and hobby should move away from things that have a negative impact on the animals and on our image as well.
That’s like saying someone really understands that inbreeding can result in genetic issues, but they really really want to have a kid with a family member. Doesn’t make it okay, or even remotely acceptable.
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Unless you are attempting to breed super spiders, which has been proven to be lethal, this is not the same.
If the op continues to breed this pair many if not all of the super offspring will have deformities that can impact them far more severely than you would ever see happen with a spider wobble. Spider wobble to the severity where you have to cull offspring is not nearly as common as needing to cull kinked snakes.
I say this as someone who has bred spider morph offspring and as the owner of a snake with a kink where we didn’t know the quality of life at the time he was given to me.
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As others have mentioned, this is the exact kind of stance we do not need and absolutely should not encourage in this hobby. Intentionally producing animals with defects that are likely to result in death is under no circumstance ethical or justified. Especially when this is the well known outcome. And especially when you can get to the same phenotype without those deaths.
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I held back a GHI mahogany het pied male and several mahogany het pied females to try to make an abyss pied. Of course if that combo has problems I expect the secretive ball python community to keep under wraps until just before I finally produce one.
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those deaths are food for bigger reptile, anything that dies or about to become food at my place (if i would have this situation …) nothing deformed get sold! I don’t have these gene but I’m not going to police combos and make stuff illegal that a sloppy slop ! 
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I highly disagree that we should stay away from certain morph because bad breeder sells a bad quality snake or because some people claim that their rescue spider is standard which is far from the true. All the bad case i seen from YouTube are rescue. Breeding snake that has risk of kinking and becoming food like a mice is not different for me ! I breed fancy mice and they get feed to my snake even if they are long fur satin !
the reptile community does not need bans or regulation for certain morph sloppy slop that the government will 100% become a problem. well more for you… im from canada it dont affect me, ball python won’t survive our winters …
If you can’t see the difference in this, I’m done with this conversation. Purposely breeding animals that have genetic defects and claiming that they’ll be used for food, and saying that it’s equivalent to breeding “fancy mice” is absolutely ridiculous.
I don’t see the point in trying to explain what I, or anyone else has mentioned here if you’re going to continue making these kind of illogical correlations.
It isn’t the same, hands down.
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Nobody here is suggesting that government police or regulate the breeding of specific morphs, rather that we have an ethical obligation as breeders to not produce animals that have defects that are often incompatible with life. Feeders, whether they are snake or rodent, should be treated humanely and not made to suffer any more than neccesary. Inhumane treatment of animals does bring down scrutiny on the hobby as a whole, so it’s really important to “put our best foot forward” and showcase that we do care about our animals as more than projects, collectables and $$
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breeding fancy mice or dogs HAS GENETIC DEFECTS. just seem extremely hypocrite cats and dogs has multiple genetic defect they all do ,the majority has hip problem or cannot breed they are not ban and so should reptile morph !
You are suggesting to open the pandora box ,with regulation…People can breed whatever they want .
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