Unless you are attempting to breed super spiders, which has been proven to be lethal, this is not the same.
If the op continues to breed this pair many if not all of the super offspring will have deformities that can impact them far more severely than you would ever see happen with a spider wobble. Spider wobble to the severity where you have to cull offspring is not nearly as common as needing to cull kinked snakes.
I say this as someone who has bred spider morph offspring and as the owner of a snake with a kink where we didn’t know the quality of life at the time he was given to me.
As others have mentioned, this is the exact kind of stance we do not need and absolutely should not encourage in this hobby. Intentionally producing animals with defects that are likely to result in death is under no circumstance ethical or justified. Especially when this is the well known outcome. And especially when you can get to the same phenotype without those deaths.
I held back a GHI mahogany het pied male and several mahogany het pied females to try to make an abyss pied. Of course if that combo has problems I expect the secretive ball python community to keep under wraps until just before I finally produce one.
those deaths are food for bigger reptile, anything that dies or about to become food at my place (if i would have this situation …) nothing deformed get sold! I don’t have these gene but I’m not going to police combos and make stuff illegal that a sloppy slop !
I highly disagree that we should stay away from certain morph because bad breeder sells a bad quality snake or because some people claim that their rescue spider is standard which is far from the true. All the bad case i seen from YouTube are rescue. Breeding snake that has risk of kinking and becoming food like a mice is not different for me ! I breed fancy mice and they get feed to my snake even if they are long fur satin !
the reptile community does not need bans or regulation for certain morph sloppy slop that the government will 100% become a problem. well more for you… im from canada it dont affect me, ball python won’t survive our winters …
If you can’t see the difference in this, I’m done with this conversation. Purposely breeding animals that have genetic defects and claiming that they’ll be used for food, and saying that it’s equivalent to breeding “fancy mice” is absolutely ridiculous.
I don’t see the point in trying to explain what I, or anyone else has mentioned here if you’re going to continue making these kind of illogical correlations.
Nobody here is suggesting that government police or regulate the breeding of specific morphs, rather that we have an ethical obligation as breeders to not produce animals that have defects that are often incompatible with life. Feeders, whether they are snake or rodent, should be treated humanely and not made to suffer any more than neccesary. Inhumane treatment of animals does bring down scrutiny on the hobby as a whole, so it’s really important to “put our best foot forward” and showcase that we do care about our animals as more than projects, collectables and $$
breeding fancy mice or dogs HAS GENETIC DEFECTS. just seem extremely hypocrite cats and dogs has multiple genetic defect they all do ,the majority has hip problem or cannot breed they are not ban and so should reptile morph !
Going to have to ask that everyone keep the community guidelines in mind, this thread is starting to get off topic and moving into unproductive argument territory.
@stephanyroyals
This may be a different way of saying it that may be more easy to understand.
You said you would use them as food. Which undeniably is something that can be done when a neonate passes. The problem comes when someone else sees this.
Mice are commonly bred to be fed to reptiles or used in medical study. You are producing a high quality fancy mouse. A pet or show quality, but they can still be feeders.
By the reply you made, it implies you would willing breed for potentially horribly deformed hatchlings and just use them as feeders if they aren’t good enough to be sold. Babies that will die just after hatching or suffer if not humanely put down. This is not normal and should not be encouraged.
Yes, there are unethical breeders of animals. Dogs, cats, horses, pigs… But that doesn’t mean we should be encouraging more of this just because, ‘it can be food’.
The ‘it can be food’ mindset here is also something that can lead to worldwide extremists like PETA using this to further the idea that reptiles are not to be kept as pets elsewhere.
It can also affect how people will look at you as a business. Yes, you man not be doing anything abusive to the animals that are breeding, but the animals you are hatching can be considered abuse if you are maintaining the production of deformed offspring. I personally would not consider purchasing animals from a breeder that admits to doing something like this.
I’m not saying that trying this pairing once is a bad thing. But you should still be aware of the genes and issues.
Occasionally it is an issue of animals having been bred in too small a gene pool and time can improve it. Much like many canine issues. But the potential for the genetic issues can still happen.
I have actually paired for super cinnamon this year. But I did the footwork first in finding breeders who have not had an issue in their offspring. And next I will be taking some extra precautions in caring for eggs. If there is even a minor issue with sharkmouth or kinks, the project will be ended. It’s not something I will be pursuing just to see the animal I want hatch if it means others are going to potentially suffer.
I’ve had conversations with a breeder who had an incubator fail. And even though he had an animal eating well and poop with a terrible kink, we decided it was better to put them down as it was a female. Any chance of her going into ovulation would just be a painful death.
Any time we breed an animal there can be complications. It’s nature. But we shouldn’t be purposely breeding more when these issues occur and calling ourselves ethical breeders.
you REALLY don’t understand … i would never sell these animals for money !LIKE AT ALL to the public ! If i do this, it to hit my own dream snake for MY OWN COLLECTION .You people either REALLY dense or have reading comprehension problem .I DO NOT OWN ANY OF THESE GENE EITHER! Everything that you just written to me was a waste of your time …It all thing i know and agree with unless it to hit your own dream snake which it what it was about with my VERY FIRST COMMENT GO GET THAT DREAM SNAKE !I never going to agree that it bad to make your own dream snake at your own risk has long that you know how to deal with the animals that may or may not die.
I don’t think you understand this but you are the issue here, nobody else. Nobody is hungry for drama or attacking others (besides you). You are saying you are ok with breeding extremely deformed animals because you aren’t selling it. Just because an animal is only a couple hours old before being culled doesn’t mean it wasn’t in immense pain that whole time. Encouraging that is just plain wrong. And especially since this pairing itself went very wrong. There is a reason my a pied black pastel goes for around $300-400 while a super black pastel goes for 10x that. And if you look and see how there are close to 2000 black pastels listed but only 14 supers? A reason for that as well. While you may be ok with suffering animals, everyone else feels it shouldn’t be encouraged. And there is a big difference between a spider and a super black pastel. A head wobble vs a very high death rate are two things that shouldn’t even be compared.
And I find it a bit funny that you are attack our reading capabilities while everyone seems to be getting the same idea. Maybe stop and think about that for 2 seconds. Might help you realize who the real issue is here.
I don’t get what you are all trying to say because you all seem to imply that i will breed a black pastel to another black pastel or a super that cause problem. when i make it clear that if a do want a problematic snake it would be a spider …And my other post that ask for apologies for me and op is gone!
No one is saying you would do so, however your posting encouraged someone else to do so, and then you followed it up with hypotheticals about what to do with the likely numerous deformed snakes such a project would produce.
Other users were trying to explain to you why no one should be encouraging the breeding of this particular super, and why your suggestions were problematic. They were also trying to steer you towards further educating yourself about how what a breeder wants should not be put ahead of what is actually ethical/in the best interests of the animals.
A breeder’s dream snake absolutely should not come at the expense of the animals involved, the risks to their health and wellbeing. Being an ethical breeder, a good breeder, means doing everything you can to avoid producing animals with defects, especially those with severe life limiting or ending problems. If a person can’t do that, if someone’s need to have a certain color/pattern negates their ability to care about and limit the suffering they may cause, they’re not in this hobby for the right reasons and should not be breeding, end of story.
As for your post, I suggest again that you read the community guidelines as these are what are used in the moderation of this forum. If a post is removed, it was likely was in violation of those guidelines.
I think the problematic implication was just that you think if it is for your own collection, not monetary gain, that a pairing that created a lot of death, disfigurement, or pain was totally okay to MAYBE hit one specific snake. Which is what myself and many others here would disagree with.
That and, not to be rude, but your tone was far from friendly and open for discussion
I think we have everything hashed out and I explained some of the forum etiquette that was coming off as aggressive to others. I think we’re all good now!
I also forwarded the link for the morph issues. Which I’ll post here again as well just in case.
i research again and spoke with armiyana and also learn that caps is yelling!? not putting emphasis on words. im not thec Savy at all or on media ,i got on the internet very late even if im not that old. And got mix reviews from what im learning and my research …That some give good result with the breeding, but other black pastel pairing can end always horribly?why is that? Im thinking it mostly lies i saw on youtube and though it was very low risk…
Im VERY sorry! For OP and the rest apart the part that claim i would breed those i dont want a panda pied i want a spooder vpi axanthic clown one day maybe has display animal … (yes im emphasizing the very sorry ,i am sorry ) But i still think people rip into me for things i would never do ,that the problem i have with all those posts. Im not encouraging everyone to do something if they could not deal with the risk but those risk seem way bigger than what i learn and saw mostly for the black pastel and now apparently cinnamon can do the same …
i did put my trust on others very know BIG breeders, that i highly regard… (idols that start it all for me and probably most of you, pretty much the very people that started all and other breeder that are highly regarded) that breed those panda pieds and others morph that others Newers breeders would never touch.
and they don’t speak about the problem of super Black pastel and others morphs just that they are very pretty and got one …I hear it was giving some bad clutch but not “this”…
like at all those snakes cannot even move! that horrible… but they don’t show the result on YouTube just the healthy prize snake. I’m questioning everything right now those big names which one should i even believe …I’m very upset right now at them and at myself for believing that it OK and low risk when it just a big fat lie!
I’m even questioning if breeding albino are even ethical to breed! I don’t think it ok for big name to make believe that some morphs are not that big of a deal and rare problems when it not and occur in almost every clutch no less. IM VERY SORRY
Thank you all and my apologies was away at work and have not been on here sry for bringing it up it really got let say yeaha that. No worries i will make better choices and will not post the bad one just good things ok. LOL LOL best wishes to all always go with what you feel just remember there are consequences for everything in Life good or bad,
