Benefits of a normal ball python (the neglected one Edit: and harmed one) in collections

[ascended]

Thanks for putting up with my questions, your helping a lot. I’m just trying to get the balance right.
to reduce the below happening.

@t_h_wyman

Craigslist “rescues” and decides to breed them for no reason other than because it is a pair.

Yes I get that totally.

To anyone: I think its best for me to try and move away from producing any normals to reach my goals as soon as possible by aiming for supers etc.
Maybe if there are less available, the price will not be as low and Craigslist “rescues” will be less.
Just a thought. Supply and demand.

@lumpy

Do you mean, from a line that is known for the observed traits may pass down to the offspring but is not a true single mutation but a polygenic trait?

Not sure, still studying/learning about polygenic, but many youtube big breeders suggest this, quality animals over just getting the morph.

[reptilian_rapscallions]

I find my “normals”, which actually are all het for a recessive or two, are some of the calmest, best adjusted, hardiest, easiest to handle and best eating snakes in the collection. They’re tough, chill, pretty, friendly rat compactors… They make a great intro to ball python keeping.

From a breeding standpoint, a true wild type would be good for splitting out desired genes in a pairing, but that said, you could do the same with any known breeder animal, so…

I take your point about concerns over “cheap, disposable” ball pythons in large numbers and the possible harm that might cause, and I agree we as breeders should try to keep the numbers down.

However, two things.
Firstly, it benefits the hobby as a whole to have an affordable, easy to handle, introductory mid-sized snake with reasonable care requirements. They sell out quickly at shows and expos, and are a staple at pet stores, at least in part, because of the lower price. Yet they are lovely, personable and perfectly acceptable for a, supervised, children’s pet. I have spoken with many adult snake keepers who either still have or at least fondly remember their “first real pet snake” a normal ball python.

Secondly, this similar problem pops up with other pet species. Which, no doubt, led to your original post. When anyone can get two animals and “toss 'em in together” to make more, there will be people who do just that. The only real defense for the pet hobby is education, calm and consistent education for people not in the hobby yet. They need to know the difference between these animals. It’s a long road, but hopefully we, as a hobby, can get to a point where the prospective first time buyer will research what they are purchasing, at least as much as the dog or cat they would get, and prospective small breeders will know that there will be plenty of normals produced along the way without intentionally breeding for them. As reptiles become more mainstream, the pet stores will seek out or train more knowledgeable people to help customers, prospective pet owners will do more research and we have to make it easy for them to find good information. There will be more breeders, where there is a market, there will be those who enter it to make money, we just have to help them to be good breeders.

And if a breeder wants to get into the part of the business which supplies the bulk sellers, hopefully they do the research on that as well.

I suspect it would be hard to do the equivalent of a puppy mill with normal ball pythons in your basement and make enough at it to be worthwhile. In a large, purpose built facility might be a different question, but it’s not one I’m going to answer. I’m going to concentrate on quality, and if I produce a few normals along the way, rest assured, they will be the nicest ones you ever saw.

[ascended]

I liked the above post.
I intend to always have at least one normal even as a pet.
With all my posts stating I want to move away from breeding normals as a by product of breeding morphs by using supers, I must admit, I am very tempted to get a wild caught import to introduce fresh genes into my morph collection.
Preferably one that someone else has imported and cleaned up and has thrived over a few years.
There are a good few on MorphMarket that were bought as possible dinkers, not proved out and so now affordable.

[reptilian_rapscallions]

I look at the dinker as a slightly different proposition.

In that case, you will likely be keeping a larger number of the “normal” offspring to breed back. In fact, you would almost have to do that, to maximize your chances of isolating the possible gene. And to have enough animals to breed your new gene out to create morph expressions.

Gotta admit, I’m excited by the possibility in the future. I simply don’t have the space currently. I can imagine a dinker project rapidly growing to fill whole racks by itself. But what fun to discover new pattern and color combos!

[saleengrinch]

@reptilian_rapscallions

I look at the dinker as a slightly different proposition.

With that said 95 percent of “dinkers” don’t pan out. For a lot of small to medium breeders it’s not worth the space to try on something that will most likely fail and create a large number of normals you will have to care for or find homes for.

[reptilian_rapscallions]

Oh yeah. To right there. I’ll bet there are plenty of breeders who can share stories about how many animals they produced trying to winkle out a new gene and it didn’t pan out.

That would be the main reason I’m not going near a dinker project until I have a ton more room, if ever.

Might be a really interesting thread to read though. Hearing the stories of how some of these genes we all love were isolated, especially the recessives or the accidental finds, would be really cool. I bet there are some great tales out there!

[trnreptiles]

To be honest, I have at least 2 pure normals in my collection, 3 normals with hets, and my girl Delta who is a normal but has het pied markers.

I don’t see an issue with breeding normals if you were, for example, to pair them to a super or a visual recessive. Then you won’t end up with more normals.

All of my “normals” have or will be been paired to males with visual recessives so the babies will all be hets for that morph.

Examples:
1.0 banana fire VPI axanthic x 0.1 normal
1.0 banana piebald x 0.1 normal het piebald
1.0 ultramel x 0.1 normal het ultramel*
*future pairing, still raising these two up

I could also use my super mystic male, or my pastel crystal male with one of the normal females and still get no normals out of the pairing.

[reptilian_rapscallions]

I think the OP was really more about breeding to produce more normals, and the potential harm to the reptile pet image from “cheap throw away pets”. Or just breeding subpar pairings just to breed.

Your plan to breed your “normal” het to produce the visual or to a super is a good one, though.

I stand by my earlier comment. My “normals” are my best eaters, best growers, and friendliest handlers.

Kinda wish we called them something else.

Think I’ll start calling mine "Awesomes."

[verinium]

A good alternative to calling them normal is wild type, sounds more natural amd exciting.

That being said, there are benefits such as proving out genes and splitting up genes, but ultimately, id avoid them except for keeping as a pet. Everything a normal can accomplish can be done with a single gene animal, or a het stack so if you need to test a het, you know 1 animal has xyz genes. Even then, ask yourself why do you need to prove out the het? Are you new to the hobby, and need to start somewhere, so you got a cheap het and want to be sure it proves out? This isnt all that uncommon for new breeders id assume who cant afford visuals. Are you a veteran breeder that wants to test the het before selling? This should never be the case. If a parenr was visual, then there is no need to test. If it was het to het, then just list them as possibles and sell them as normals, the time, money, and extra breeding isnt worth knowing, and a new breeder may buy up that possible het to start their way into the hobby.

At the end of the day, breeding for morphs has so much opportunity for normals to be produced that there just really isnt a market for breeding normals in my opinion. I think you hit the nail on the head when you stayed “supply and demand” I think there are some amazing looking normals, but at the end of the day, im not going to spend more than 10-20$ on a snake that people are literally throwing into the winds of craigslist. The supply needs to be brought down, or the demand needs to go up. Id love to increase the demand, but sadly there are a bunch of crazy people that cant tell how awesome snakes are haha. Its a niche crowd, so the easier thing to control is supply through each of our own breeding practices, and mitigating the chance of making normals. No matter what, they will show up at some point, so dont bother with it intentionally.