I saw a chart of allelic groups several years ago that listed blackhead and chocolate in different groups but indicated the groups might be connected to each other. Was wondering if with several additional breeding seasons we now know one way or the other.
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I think these 1.1 blackhead pastel are also chocolate (and just got confirmation het clown). I might hold back one or both and am curious if blackhead and chocolate will be inherited independently or not.
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Yes they are allelic. They’re both part of the Spider Complex.
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I don’t know that breeding trials have been done with chocolate and blackhead specifically, but blackhead has been proven allelic to spider and chocolate has been proven allelic to both wookie and spotnose, which are both proven allelic to spider, so yes, they are all confirmed allelic. So if you have a chocolate blackhead, all offspring they produce will be either chocolate or blackhead.
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Thanks.
According to this now over 2 yo chart spider is lethal with spotnose so not sure those could be proven allelic.
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In a recent RGI podcast Dr Morrill indicated he might be close to finding Spotnose. Would sure be nice if that helped find everything in the top two rows.
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I think chocolate/wookie have been proven to be allelic with spider. So with those being allelic with spider it in turn makes spotnose allelic with spider. Even though the combo is lethal, it’s still allelic.
The thread on ball Python allelic complexes has the info supporting this, I can link/quote it if needed. Just on my phone so I’ll have to go to the computer to make my life easier lol
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Spotnose Spiders is not lethal. Some are fine, and some are complete corkscrews though.
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Alellic has nothing to do with lethal or not, it has to do with being located at the same place so there can only be two alleles of those genes in one spot. If one gene is allelic with one of the other genes in the complex, it is allelic with all of them. Spider is proven allelic to blackhead, blackhead is proven allelic to spotnose, spotnose is proven allelic to chocolate, therefore they are allelic.
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I agree that if all of those have been proven then chocolate and blackhead must be alleles. Just that for Spotnose and spider to be proven directly some would have had to grow up to breed but as posted in this thread maybe that has/could also happened after all.
I don’t know much of anything about the methods different gene hunters are using to find mutations to develop test. Dr Seidel does have a track record for finding whole complexes so maybe if Dr Morrill nails down Spotnose someone can develop tests for the whole allele group. I would love to have a chocolate test. But we already have both enchi and black pastel but not cinnamon so maybe having part of an allelic complex doesn’t make it a slam dunk for getting them all.
Not true. These two animals could NEVER be bred together but still be proven allelic.
As @inspirationexotics stated, based on the morphs that are allelic, you can conclude that they indeed are allelic.
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Sorry, semantics. I’m not saying they aren’t allelic. And I follow how we can be sure they are allelic based on both being proven allelic to a third gene. But I’m using “proven” in the old school biblical sense that it was verified be hatching enough babies. But even then one can argue about what is “enough”. Will be very interesting when eventually a scientific paper is written on the actual mutations for another level of “proven”. A hardcore sceptic could argue up until that time that we could mistake closely linked genes for alleles.