Breeding Loan Debate on genetics

jchipowsky · June 25, 2024, 4:30pm

We have complicated genetics going on and need help. I’m including photos and possible genetics from our own clutch as reference.
We bred our mahogany chocolate butter to our cinnamon pastel, but we also loaned him to a friend with a super black pastel. I do not have pictures of the super black pastel.
Cinnamon pastel gave us 7 good eggs, all hatched without problems.
Super black pastel gave 4 eggs(laid 2 days after our own), 2 went bad immediately. We ended up cutting the eggs when they were a week behind the other clutch hatching (same incubator same temps). Another week went by, no movement was seen. We thought they had died. We pulled one out of the egg to see what had gone wrong, but then it moved. It was well developed but still had yolk attached. It was moved to a box in the incubator with wet paper towels and is doing fine. The other moved in the egg so we left it. Another week went by and no change, so at next check it had died (we took it out of the egg and found it deformed)
Picture of the bad one is at the end.

Dam 1, cinnamon pastel

Sire to all, mahogany chocolate butter/lesser

Clutch 1
#1, pastel cinnamon mahogany butter chocolate

#2, chocolate mahogany?

#3, chocolate Cinnamon mahogany?

#4, cinnamon pastel?

#5, butter chocolate (mahogany or cinnamon)

#6, butter chocolate pastel?

#7, mahogany chocolate?

Clutch 2
Live baby (I think black pastel butter either chocolate or mahogany not both, leaning towards chocolate)

Baby that didn’t make it I’m sure was the all gene
Black pastel mahogany chocolate butter (darker than clutch 1 all gene as it has no pastel)

What does everyone think?

logar · June 25, 2024, 4:53pm

I am still convinced that your male has cinnamon in him. That very first baby looks like a super cinnamon and that dead deformed maybe looks to be a cinnamon black pastel.

@armiyana what do you think?

armiyana · June 25, 2024, 5:08pm

I agree. The first and the dead hatchling both look like Blk pastel/cinny super.

Sadly, bad clutches happen. I’ve had bad luck this year myself with a clutch that kinked out as well. It sucks and sadly it’s not something you can predict (outside of pairings like caramel albinos and cinny/Blk pastels)

jchipowsky · June 25, 2024, 5:34pm

We found 1 all gene animal for reference, the only to be posted anywhere. Though I do wish that rgi would get more of the dark morphs in the testing.

jchipowsky · June 25, 2024, 5:56pm

This is the original add for the father. I’d like to talk to the original breeder and see if we can’t trace the genetics back farther.

akmorphs · June 25, 2024, 8:51pm

This was the Cinnamon Lesser BP; I’d say genetics played an issue (prob w/ mom)

jchipowsky · June 25, 2024, 10:18pm

It would be black pastel, there’s no cinnamon in the pairing of this one. And definitely not a black pastel lesser

jchipowsky · June 25, 2024, 10:19pm

Cinnamon lesser for comparison

nswilkerson1 · June 25, 2024, 10:37pm

There is if there is an unconfirmed copy of cinnamon in the dad, which you’re has multiple people speculate and voice that here.

armiyana · June 25, 2024, 10:50pm

Also in the other thread as well.

Edit: also going to add here.
The sire for this clutch is on the top left. His father is pictured in the breeder’s ad … that’s the animal on the right AND bottom right.
And Fireball DOES have black pastel in their collection. So it could be a missed gene.

Especially given that the pastel cinny butter mahogany looks nothing like either the first or the kinked hatchling and the first is identical to a pastel Blk pastel cinny. And again…when you look at the nose shape that is common with super cinny or Blk pastels. You may want to double check that hatchling for shark mouth as well.