Breeding plans

Pythons Ball Pythons
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Another question to go with my previous one

I’m thinking of changing from vivariums to racks for my breeding plans,

Obviously this is a controversial thing apparently and everyone is either for it against and it hits me like everyone thinks it’s detrimental to the snake,

I was going to go for 70l tubs and then have a playpen set up once a week for external stretch out and enrichment time (tubs will have enrichment as well)

But I’m now thinking would I be better going for 80l tubs?

Obviously price wise that 10l makes a huge difference but I want to offer the snakes good care and space whilst having it physically viable and not taking up every inch of space with the vivs, plus for the hatchings I’d be using a rack but then having a spare rack if I’m holding on to them long term with bigger tubs

Apologies for the bombarding questions it’s new to me and I only ever see negative views on racks and I’m of the mind that there’s a reason they’re made and work for many people so it can’t all be negative

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I use a lot of tubs in racks, and some display enclosures; I’m neither entirely for or against racks, but they are in many ways less good for the snake than larger enclosures. I have only one royal python (thank you to the UK for using a good common name for these guys), and I would not keep him in a tub after seeing his behavior in an admittedly quite small (24" x 48") PVC enclosure for many years.

Tubs in racks do in fact “work”, but they’re used for efficiency and financial reasons, not because they’re the best for the animal being housed in them. I don’t see breeding in exclusively display enclosures being feasible in most situations, and the snake market – considered as a whole, anyway – wouldn’t support the increase in cost that would be passed along (at least in the US as far as I’ve learned from talking to lots of buyers; maybe UK buyers have different priorities).

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See this is my issue,

I want to provide adequate enrichment and exploration but I am also aware my intentions to breed are unattainable in an enclosure.

Me and my fiance did debate the idea of breeding in vivariums but the idea of 3+ 4x2x2’s on top of a hatchling rack, on top of an incubator, it’s just mind boggling.

However my comeback from the negativity of racks is if I include enrichment in the tubs and create a safe space for free exploration time out of the racks, surely that gives the best of both worlds?

As in the freedom to stretch and use the neural pathways and the ability for myself to use racks for convenience and space

What are your thoughts on this

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Socrates hit the nail here with this. The reason ‘breeders’ use racks is because their goal is to have as many breeding animals in as condensed of a space as possible and you simply cannot do that with cages. Welcome to capitalism… :confused:

Now, if you are just a ‘keeper’ that wants to breed, there is no absolute need to go for racks. I bred my alterna, Oligodon, Rhamphiophis and Candoia all in cages. I hope to breed my other Rhamps, my Pseudaspis, my Malpolon, my Charina, and my nauta in cages. It is a bit more difficult and means you actually have to pay significant attention to your animals, but it can be done

So the question you need to ask yourself is - Am I breeding because I want to make this a business or am I breeding because I am interesting in learning everything about these animals and their full life cycle?

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I hate to break it to you, but if you get a rack you still need to get the hatchling rack and the incubator. And also sell the cages. You are going to spend just as much money (actually you will lose money because you will not get the same amount for the cages as you spent to buy them)

Also, and I mean this as gently as possible, if that list is enough to make you feel mind boggled, then I have to very strongly recommend you not breed yet because your mind is not in the right place

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Just to add some info,

My snakes are nowhere near breeding age and weights, they won’t be for a couple of years so I intend to learn as much asi can by then,

And to retort to the mind boggling statement,

I know the prices in the uk are less then our American counter parts, however I meant purely in physical terms not the monetary terms I have years to earn and properly fund the items needed, i don’t have infinite space which is what the statement was meant for.

To clarify, I’m purely asking about is using racks but allowing a decent amount of external time and enrichment, more ethically viable and actually more suited than just slapping the snake into a rack and forgetting about anything else.

My issue with vivs are I don’t know if breeding in vivs suits my setup, or space requirements, also my vivs are all second hand so luckily they didn’t put me out of pocket anywhere near the level they could have

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Also on top of that reply,

I’m doing it as a side piece to learn more in depth knowledge about my pets, and see how the full life circle works for snakes.

So this will never become my money earner it would be more or less a hobby with the intention of breaking even rather than huge profits

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Honestly, irrelevant to the conversation
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The footprint for a stack of cages is not radically different than the footprint of the size of rack you are talking about.

Further, you are still not thinking this through fully

Hatchlings become juveniles become sub-adults become adults. Each requires a different size tub/rack to comfortably/ethically house them. How quickly do you believe you can get rid of all the babies once you hatch them? This is not a rhetorical question. I had non-holdback animals from my first pairing five years later. Do you have the extra space for the extra racks you would need to house the babies you produce?

Questions/situations like this are why I said above that I do not believe you are in the right head space to be breeding, because you do not seem to have considered these other factors
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I hear what you are asking. And I am telling you that you are asking the wrong questions
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If that is the case, then why would you want to put them in tubs where you cannot observe their behaviours? Again, not a rhetorical question. You are never going to be able to watch the behaviour of something when it is stashed away in a drawer. I could keep and breed my Candoia in tubs, plenty of people do. But keeping mine communally in a large naturalistic cage gave me the opportunity to see how the males collaboratively work to breed females(along with all the other cool things they do)
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I hate to break it to you but you will never break even. I have thirty years of experience speaking there

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Racks work. You can still provide plenty of enrichment given the small collection if you take the time. The life cycle of the animal is affected by the taxation of breeding and improper care not because its in a rack. Enrichment is subjectivity. They live in tunnels under the ground and come out from time to time for variouse reasons.

Capitalism is not always the reason although there is a buisness aspect to things. Keeping animals cost money and has its own set of challenges. Breaking even never comes around for many while others have success with profits.

I would recommend that you start slow and enjoy the animals you have. If you dont want to loose them dont breed them or pair them up spairingly. You might have to keep offspring for 1 to 3 years before someone decides to receive the animal. Having a proper set up is a small peace to the puzzle.

Loads of information availabe to learn about the life cycle of animal. Its a different thing if you want to experience that cycle first hand. Just keep in mind it has its set of challenges that also come with the rewards.

Cost is always a situational thing and depends on the outcome. Racks are not cheap although you can build your own at affordable price just like you could build an enclosure with similar cost and outcome. Same goes for purchasing. In the end your cost will be close when comparing apples to apples given everything that goes into it.

That being said. It sounds like you would like to have the 4x2x2 set up in a realistic way to provide enrichment as well as be a display for you to enjoy the life cycle of your animals. That is completely fine and will work given you provide optimal conditions for your animal. Be more specific in the details because thats what makes or breaks peoplle. Its the specifics that people need to conceptualize in order for success.

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‘Exploration space’: this might well get quite labor intensive and frankly just old after decades (these snakes go 40 years if kept well – and part of keeping them well involves not power feeding females to chase morphs; the tension between breeding animals and keeping them well is pretty deep-rooted) – at least it would for me. Frankly, keeping a species is often only exciting for so long, and then having a good autopilot enclosure helps.

I personally take great pains with biosecurity, and shared play areas isn’t conducive to that. If a keeper only has one breeding group of snakes this isn’t a real worry – since they’ll be in intimate physical contact anyway – but with larger operations this is worth considering.

I’m not sure that ‘adding enrichment to tubs’ is really that much of a thing (though it makes people feel good, and sells products – hey look, it’s capitalism again) – it strikes me like adding flavor to food (if you have to add flavor, it isn’t good food and you might best learn how to cook). Adding or routinely swapping in hardscape elements is great and all, but it is still a snake stuck in a box that it can’t even not touch the sides on. It isn’t like the tub is going to have real choices of microclimates, or have somewhere to go that the snake hasn’t been 100 times today already.

I think if space is a constraint, breeding a smaller species would be worth seriously considering. That aside, it would likely be valuable to keep your royal for a few years, maybe get a couple more that you like (not necessarily ones with future dollar signs on them) and figure out the ins and outs of keeping them so that you can make up your mind on how you want to proceed. No offense, but considering breeding after keeping a snake for a couple months is pretty premature (hope I read your older posts correctly on this). Breeding snakes is easy (I mean, the snakes do it themselves), but doing it well takes some keeping experience to figure out how to best raise up (and for that matter buy) breeding stock, how to best keep hatchlings, what different feeding routines have as pros and cons, etc. If this were some species that really needed to be bred, it might be reasonable to move fast and break things, but royals are 100% exactly not that.

Hope this all sounds friendly and helpful, since that’s how it is intended. :slight_smile:

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Okay what’s been made clear to me is I need to make my plan clear.

This comment I can understand the previous gentleman’s comments make a lot of assumptions about me and my plans and what I do and i don’t know. It also comes across in an unfortunately disrespectful way but I’m almost 100% sure that’s not how it was intended maybe just how I’m reading it

My plans are:

I currently have a female that’s poss het clown (I will be genetic testing for this) she is 7 months old and at 231g basically nowhere near breeding ready, that I understand.

To her I will be adding a visual clown het DG with the aim of eventually (with holdbacks) producing Clown DG visuals with a co dom that I like

My enclosure plan is to have a rack for my adult pairing and a few extra spaces.

I will only be planning to breed for one clutch a season. If that clutch isnt sold or where I need it to be then I will not be breeding a second clutch until my first clutch as found either new homes or if they never sell I have settled that I will have to be that home and I have accepted that, although in the UK market clown DG visuals are selling maybe not in 2 years time but I can change my plans if need be as it s 2 years away.

Along with this adult rack, I will have 1 hatchling rack enough tubs for a maximum clutch, which to my understanding is 10 however it is unlikely this would be the number.

As a spare housing especially for longer holding juveniles I will have another rack empty but as a filter housing if the out grow their hatchling rack before selling.

So I have thought out a plan that if things do not sell I have a plan B.

As for breaking even I agree I’ve read a lot and breaking even is hard, but it is do able and if I plan and am effective I can make it work, if breaking even was unrealistic or unattainable breeder would be breeding for 30+ years

As for the experiencing the life cycle, i would prefer a first hand approach and like to see it for myself.

However despite all of this I am building a reptile house in my garden, which can have either enclosures or racks, I am potentially going down the rack route purely on the fact that I know their husbandry is easier to maintain as racks have been known to hold humidity better than enclosures, this is something I struggle with in the UK as the heat is generally okay but it’s a very mid range humidity here.

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All these points I understand, and I agree with them, as I mentioned I am still new to this, and this is more hypothetical about the future, I’m not anywhere close to breeding level knowledge, I’m fortunate to be aware of that where as many people jump head first into it,

I want to have the discussion to know if I’m planning correctly, but at the end of the day for me breeding won’t be enough to live on, of course I’d love to run as main time breeder but in the UK at the moment that’s hard to be hitting.

Granted the royal python ads and animals for sale in the UK is nowhere near the 30-40ks listed in America but the market has slowed and is from what I’ve seen doing research heading toward quality over the gene bombing seen previously

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PVC enclosures are IMO better for RH regulation than tubs, since PVC enclosures can be more easily monitored (just look inside) and adjusted (crack the door). But that’s almost splitting hairs, since RH issues are with new keepers using glass enclosures and/or heat lamps (i.e. just inappropriate equipment).

Maybe, but I’ll echo Travis’s comment about the chances of breaking even, and I do so on the basis of experience breeding as a business (no, I don’t live on breeding profit – and it is so not even close it is funny). I’d be curious to see whatever numbers a person might run to make them think it a break-even venture, and to see how long that break even point will take.

Repliers here could help by noting expenses that you may have not considered (rodent breeding for starting hatchlings on live; freezer for the frozen ones), or underestimated, and give some input into unpredictable expenses (I just spent $500 for unsuccessful treatment and necropsy on a $600 snake that I had for a year – so add another $50 in food and $100 for initial health screening = $1250 and no snake, and odds are that the necropsy won’t be conclusive anyway so I might not even learn anything).

Though if you’re running water and sewer and power out to a stand alone reptile house, maybe the financial aspect isn’t even worth concern? And then the space issue is a non-issue, I would think?

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I agree with the breaking even, it depends on how you look at it, and what you choose as the figures to create the idea,

And as for finances, the reptile house is more so to create the space as I currently have a room purely dictated by 3 4ft vivs and as this topic suggest am keen to investigate the breeding process with Ball pythons,

I take into account about the breaking even thing being subjective, to me things such as electricity and necessities to live are obviously incurred expenses that can’t be avoided, so no matter what anyone breeder does in some sense they’re working to a loss unless their profit margins don’t include those necessities and utility bills.

So for example there’s a seller on the UK MorphMarket who is selling chocolate balls with other genes mixed in for over £1000,

Of course this is not likely for a DG clown, but sticking with the theme of breaking even.

Dependent on the amount of sales this breeder makes his costs for that clutch would most likely be working at a profit,

Another more specific situation,

Most clowns in the UK seem to be going for anywhere between £100-1000,

If you sell a clutch of 6 eggs

3 double hets (lowest), which if appear normal will most likely fetch 70-200 dependent on visuals let’s say £120

And 2 visual clowns, £500 each (mid range)

And 1 Double recessive visual £600-1500 (mid range) = £1000

Your overall come back from that investment would be

£2360, dependent on length of holding these snakes as well as holdbacks and things as such IE utility tariffs in the UK change and certain companies offer better rates and things

For a clutch like this if they sell within 5 feeds and ideally 2 sheds, you’d be laughing at the amount

However I do accept this is essentially the ideal perfect Scenario and is unrealistic in current market but this is still my thought process, in terms of its dependent on what’s produced what our market involves and how you (the seller) determines the breaking even/ profit margin

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Any buisness takes 3 to 5 years to get out of the black. Most fail. I would say co habitate your snakes with a smaller tub for removing the male when needed. You can worry about tubs for your hatchlings after they hatch since you can cohabitate them for several months. Do so research and get a game plan because no one is going to hold your hand or walk you through it step by step. You need to get your feet wet and put in the work.

Numbers always look good on paper but dont alway reflect reality. In your case that shouldn’t be an issue given obviouse reasons of starting small and just trying to learn the life cycle.

Down the road Purchase variation of females with similar genetics that you can plug 1 male to on a rotation for higher odds . Hold back the best males and breed back to unrelated females. Then you can start thinking about females and males for future breeding that have low relationships if you get to that point.

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This is fair, that’s kind of my whole premise is I am coming at this from the stand point of I’m interested in breeding for me not for the money, and as stated I think one clutch a season isn’t exactly break the bank never going to sell territory,

There’s beginners out there who breed 2/3 females and end up with 3 clutches at once and get stuck and go downhill