Breeding question

[dugglc1]

I have been building my collection from MorphMarket and keep finding people listing pairs, but when i ask they are siblings. Why would they list as pairs when they are siblings? Is it ok to breed siblings? I wouldn’t think that is good, but thought i would ask.

[solarserpents]

Breeding siblings (or offspring back to parent) is extremely common in reptile breeding. It is usually the easiest way to get a homozygous pair of genes. Most of the morphs we have in the hobby today have been a result of inbreeding. Outcrossing is always a good idea though!

[erie-herps]

I think people do it because they often have similar genes (especially recessives) that would go well together. Inbreeding is common but I don’t support it since there are better options (except for rare or new morphs). I bought a pair that are half-siblings and I’m still not sure whether or not I will breed them together.

[t_h_wyman]

@dugglc1

Why would they list as pairs when they are siblings?

A pair is simply two of something, so whether or not they are related is irrelevant:

A “pair” - one male, one female - is no different than a “pair” - two males - is no different than a “pair” - two females - is no different than a “pair” - one ball python, one corn snake

As far as inbreeding is concerned, there are lots of opinions on the matter. These posts in a rather lengthy discussion elsewhere on the boards sum up my personal feelings

Breeding siblings together?

It is a common trope in the hobby to see people claim that snakes are sedentary in the wild and, thus, inbreeding is not an issue. This is more a justification for inbreeding that it is based on fact. The huge range distributions of the species we are dealing with proves that they are actually pretty good at traveling around. When you further account for spacial, temporal and sexual distancing and how they relate to population dynamics then you come to recognize that inbreeding is not that commo…

Breeding siblings together?

You are making my point. Yes, you may have a snake that dens in the same location. Ecological studies have shown us that by and large it is the females that establish den sites. So we have a denned female that you observe every year, is she breeding with the exact same male every year? And is that male her brother/father/son? No and no. The males of the species tend to be more travel prone because they move around a lot trying to find females to breed. So she is going to be seeing a new male e…

[kukrikeeper]

You can always buy another sibling pair from another breeder, make up two unrelated pairs, keep the pair you like best and sell off the other unrelated pair. It sounds like more hassle but it’s worth doing in my opinion.

[dugglc1]

I was more worried about the viability of the offspring. I didn’t want to waste a bredding season on a batch of slugs due to inbreeding. Since this post i have talked to a local breeder and purched 3 siblings (1 male and 2 females), from him that are normal corns but with a ton of morphs. The sire was an ultra stripe with several morphs or hets, and the dam was normal also with several hets. The sire was probably the most beautiful corns i have ever seen. My plan is to breed these to see what i get and keep the rest of my pairs unrelated for now.

[cleoskingdom]

While it is a common practice and I have heard repeatedly that line/inbreeding generation after generation has repeatedly been done without ill effect, I admit I get squicked out after F2-F3, P2-P3, etc. generations and avoid going beyond that. (For those unfamiliar with the terminology: unrelated parent x unrelated parent are the P1 generation, and they produce F1 offspring. Pairing F1s together results in F2s, F2 x F2 results in F3s, etc. Parent x offspring create P2 offspring.)

We started disclosing if offspring are from unrelated parents, or if related, how, in our ads so folks can make a fully informed decision they are comfortable with. We also started including pedigree charts with anything we produce that goes back with us 2 or more generations so everyone is as informed as possible, which we believe is incredibly important.

That said, technically nearly all, if not all, specimens of expressed recessive genes are related. They all originate from the same individual (and sometimes, a handful of individuals) first discovered to express that gene. Reminds me a bit of the thoroughbred racehorse; all thoroughbreds can trace back to the 3 foundation stallions, though interestingly 95% of the modern breed traces back to one stallion (the Darley Arabian, for the curious).

[timothyh]

I know it can be done but a lot of the ads I see like that are from people trying to beat the system. Like a basic user can post 3 animals for sale but people will post a couple or even a batch and list individual morphs and prices on the same post.