CMSReptiles possible Carbon Clown breeding thread

[cmsreptiles]

Starting this thread to keep track of Breeding progress of the 2 Clowns gifted to me from @chesterhf and @t_h_wyman .

For some background information @chesterhf originally purchased this girl,

Mango, from Moore Pythons LLC. She’s suspected to be a single gene Clown produced from a Batman x Clown pairing- however the breeder from Moore Pythons LLC did mention he bought his original Clown stock from Paul Miles (who I believed first discovered and bred out the Carbon morph) and it is suspected that his Clown stock may be circulating the Carbon Morph due to multiple unique Clown babies appearing from clutches that are related to Mango.

Lo and behold, after breeding Mango to this Leopard Butter het Clown male

from Custom Scales (previously RL Exotics), she produced this male Pesto.

A unique Clown very much similar to odd hatchlings from clutches that Mango’s relatives have produced.

@chesterhf reached back out to the breeders of both parents, RL Exotics claimed he had never seen anything like Pesto before… and Moore Pythons LLC claimed that he has had other hatchlings like Pesto as previously mentioned.

Mango was then paired again to a G-Stripe poss Acid but just produced normals with hets… no odd babies.

That was Mango’s last clutch as far as I’m aware. With some discussion between @t_h_wyman and @chesterhf, they’ve discerned that Pesto does resemble other Carbon Clowns, so he is suspected of that- along with his and his mother’s lineage even further strengthening the possibility.

Here is a post with the information I’ve written here:

Carbon Project

So I need to revive this thread to get some opinions. About a month ago I hatched out a clutch from a leopard butter het clown x clown pairing and got a few unexpected looking hatchlings. This funky looking clown: [IMG_20211107_171554415] [IMG_20211026_085347101] [IMG_20211108_183811004] and a more subtle but different looking leopard butter [Dark leopard butter 1] [IMG_20211108_184613334] @t_h_wyman mentioned that it looked similar to a carbon fire clown that was listed on MorphMarke…

With the details out of the way, I am now looking forward to pairing Pesto with Mango this season to see what results come out of it- and if there are any babies that resemble Pesto that come out of this future pairing.

Both Mango and Pesto are now currently at the cooling phase of the season (started Oct. 1st) and will be paired for the first time Nov. 1st given that everything goes well. I also have my male Banana Pastel Mystic Jango as a backup breeder if Pesto doesn’t get the job done…

I will continue to update this thread as the breeding season continues, hopefully something fruitful will come from this project! I will also be doing a full panel morph test on Pesto in the future to see if maybe there’s something else as well- I will be adding the results of that to this thread.

[armiyana]

Is carbon possibly a different line of charcoal? They’re both really neat granite morphs. Looking at the super carbon fire and super charcoal they’re such pretty little noods.

MM doesn’t have info for Charcoal but WOBP does.

I will be waiting patiently for more from this project in the future

[cmsreptiles]

On Morphpedia it states there are no known related traits… so I cannot say for sure if its a different line. I know theres a super form of it though!

[chesterhf]

Looking forward to seeing the outcome! Pesto was such a fun surprise from that clutch, so hopefully it can be reproduced

Here is Mango’s “oops all normals” clutch from her pairing with Bagel (G-Stripe pos acid) from 2023 just in case anyone can see anything I didn’t. Other than one baby that had a nice reduced pattern, they all looked very normal

[cmsreptiles]

This little one stands out to me, but simply because of the spotting of the stripe at the base of the neck- which is a described trait of Carbon.

But I’d personally not look into too much since thats the only indicator I see, the keyholes in the Alien heads looks too clean- what I’ve seen in Carbons is that the keyholes more resemble speckling than spots, or are otherwise mishapen for the majority of them.

[chesterhf]

I think I accidentally deleted some of the individual pictures from this clutch, but I do have some of that one (yes, I know his name is misspelled on the card ):

[jawramik]

Love the name.

[cmsreptiles]

What still bewilders me is that Mango doesn’t show those signs, even looking at her up close in person.

Carbon is Incomplete Dominant so it would be visibly obvious if one of the parents had it right?? If she does have it, its extremely subtle in her.

She is really pretty though, she’s got a gorgeous slight olive green tone between her alien heads, and nice brown red tones.

I would believe Pesto was Axanthic if I didn’t know his lineage or see his hatchling pictures, he looks a lot grayer than his momma or any other single gene Clown I’ve seen but when he goes into blue he doesn’t get “blue” or pink bellied… he just gets a really rich dark chocolate tone.

[armiyana]

@cmsreptiles

I know theres a super form of it though!

Oh totally. Both do. I just haven’t been able to dig out a super carbon without fire photo to compare the supers for both.
The odds of actually trying a cross or testing is basically impossible. Charcoal seems almost impossible to find now.

I love funky patterns and blushing like these guys.

[cmsreptiles]

I’ll also be breeding Pesto to Nobara, my Banana Pewter Lesser and see how those babies turn out… but that’ll be later in the season to give a buffer between my clutches lol. I only have one little incubator so 1 clutch at a time is what I gotta do

[chesterhf]

@cmsreptiles

Carbon is Incomplete Dominant so it would be visibly obvious if one of the parents had it right??

Yeah, so that’s definitely one of the issues with it being carbon. If it’s actually carbon, that would mean that she actually super reduced penetrance carbon, which seems unlikely. So I’ve wondered if it’s something that maybe looks similar but might be recessive or x-linked.

Pesto as an adult absolutely looks axanthic, the difference in pigmentation is wild. As a hatchling he actually had a weird greenish hue in certain light that was super hard to capture in pictures. But you can definitely see him here compared to a leopard clown (upper left), and a single morph clown sibling from the same clutch (upper right), and he has much more “cool tones” to his coloration.

@cmsreptiles

I only have one little incubator so 1 clutch at a time is what I gotta do

Mango’s last clutch (the 8 normals pictured above) were 100% maternally incubated the whole way through with 100% hatch rate, so incubator is optional. She’s an incredible mother

[cmsreptiles]

Awwww she does look like a good momma

I’ve never attempted maternal incubation so I feel nervous trying it out, I wanted to with my BEL clutch but backed out last minute because I worry about temp fluctuations in the animal room that an incubator would otherwise combat.

The temps can fluctuate between the mid 80’s to high 60’s in the room depending on the season, especially now that we are nearing winter and have 90° plus days and mid 60° nights @_@

[t_h_wyman]

@cmsreptiles

Carbon is Incomplete Dominant so it would be visibly obvious if one of the parents had it right?? If she does have it, its extremely subtle in her

There are recessive forms of “Granite” out there so that might account for the “spontaneous” nature of Pesto

[cmsreptiles]

Welp I began pairing on the night of the 1st, no locks that night, no locks yesterday morning however I did confirm a lock for Mango x Pesto yesterday around 11pm!