Compatible reccesives?

nathan_e · January 14, 2020, 12:21am

I understand that some recessive genes are compatible but I’m unsure of which and how many are compatible. If any of you have info I’d appreciate you guys sharing

stewart_reptiles · January 14, 2020, 2:03am

There are a few lines of hypos that are not compatible however the most commonly work with such as Orange Ghost, Bell, Butterscotch are.

Than axanthics none of the lines are compatible.

alpinereptiles · January 14, 2020, 6:37am

Albino, Candy, & Toffee are allelic.
I’ve read that Sentinel and Paint are as well.
I don’t know if anyone has ever tried Ultramel and Lavender, but I know that neither are allelic or compatible with Caramel.
Scaleless head and microscale?
Orange Crush and Orange Ghost?

theroyalclutch · January 14, 2020, 1:05pm

Desert Ghost and Enhancer

t_h_wyman · January 14, 2020, 1:41pm

As has been said, most of the Hypo lines are, with a couple exceptions

Ultramel, Burgundy, and Crider are all allelic. There is speculation Monarch may fall in there but no one has done the breeding to prove it out.

Lav is NOT compatible with any of the other T-plus types, but there are multiple lineages of it out there

Sentinel and Paint have proven to be allelic. Nazca and Neo are most likely in the same complex

There are three (that I know of) independent lines of TriStripe, I know that at least two of them have proven compatible and I am sure the third will as well.

I would lump Sahara in with DesertGhost and Enhancer

I have speculation on a couple others but the last time I voiced one of them I was laid in to for “starting rumours to try and devalue the project” so…

donnielaw · January 15, 2020, 1:39pm

I’m not quite sure I understand what “compatible recessive” means.

A few days ago I saw a video showing the enhancer gene (recessive). Before they said what it was, I thought it was a desert ghost. Then they mentioned that it was compatible with DG.

Does this mean they are two different lines of the same recessive morph?

ashleyraeanne · January 15, 2020, 1:43pm

That is basically what it means, yes. The same mutation, just 2 different lineages.

donnielaw · January 15, 2020, 2:17pm

Ok thanks. So something can’t be BOTH desert ghost and enhancer because they are the same gene with different names?

t_h_wyman · January 15, 2020, 2:28pm

Not entirely.

If one gene comes from a DG and the other comes from an Enhancer then it would be “both”… But since there is fundamentally no difference between them you could call it either and it would not matter and, likewise, you could call the hets either and it would not matter

In contrast, Albino and Candy are allelic and are fundamentally different which is why we call the combo of them a Candino. And we also cannot just call the hets produced from a Candino whatever we want because the would be different depending on which gene they inherited; some would be het Albino and some would be het Candy. And the only way to know which was which would be by breeding them out

millspythons · January 22, 2020, 5:59pm

What were you laid in to for saying? I’m intrigued now and certainly wont lay into you lol

njordsnakes · March 29, 2024, 1:24pm

Two breeders in Sweden are on the verge of producing clutches from Monarch and Ultramel pairings. They’ve experimented with both direct visual-to-visual breeding and the utilization of heterozygous specimens. Although the Monarch and Ultramel morphs are essentially derived from the same genetic line, suggesting nearly identical genetics, there might still be minor differences that could affect their compatibility. If they prove to be compatible, one could potentially breed Monarchs at a lower cost. This could be achieved by pairing a particularly dark Ultramel with a high-quality Monarch, resulting in offspring that are visually indistinguishable to most observers. This strategy has not been widely acknowledged or adopted, possibly because it could undermine the value of these projects, in which significant investments have been made. Despite the widespread belief that Monarchs tend to lose their color more quickly than other morphs, which some point to as evidence of a distinct gene, variations in color retention are common across many morphs. For instance, while some Pastel morphs fade over time, others maintain their vibrancy for much longer, suggesting that the difference in fading is not necessarily indicative of a fundamentally different gene.

eddy85 · March 29, 2024, 11:20pm

njordsnakes:

Two breeders in Sweden are on the verge of producing clutches from Monarch and Ultramel pairings. They’ve experimented with both direct visual-to-visual breeding and the utilization of heterozygous specimens. Although the Monarch and Ultramel morphs are essentially derived from the same genetic line, suggesting nearly identical genetics, there might still be minor differences that could affect their compatibility. If they prove to be compatible, one could potentially breed Monarchs at a lower cost. This could be achieved by pairing a particularly dark Ultramel with a high-quality Monarch, resulting in offspring that are visually indistinguishable to most observers. This strategy has not been widely acknowledged or adopted, possibly because it could undermine the value of these projects, in which significant investments have been made. Despite the widespread belief that Monarchs tend to lose their color more quickly than other morphs, which some point to as evidence of a distinct gene, variations in color retention are common across many morphs. For instance, while some Pastel morphs fade over time, others maintain their vibrancy for much longer, suggesting that the difference in fading is not

Hi, do you know the name on socials of the breeders? I would like to contact they just to know the progress of the project. Thanks.

inspirationexotics · March 30, 2024, 8:13pm

I would love to see evidence of this in the form of clutch pics and results of those clutches, documented progress made, etc. I’m not at all saying it’s impossible, but monarch and ultramel have been widely known genes for many years now and though I’ve seen multiple people planning or doing pairings of the two together, I have yet to see any definitive evidence whatsoever one way or the other as to what they produced. I suspect that if monarch and ultramel were the compatible, it would be public knowledge by now, unless there’s something additional going on. Would love to know the names & pages of those breeders!

It’s not necessarily a guarantee that they are identical genes (or even compatible ones) just because they arise from the same kind of mutation. We have four (or possibly more) lines of axanthic, all visually indistinguishable from one another and yet all genetically incompatible as well.

t_h_wyman · April 1, 2024, 2:16pm

You underestimate the behaviour in this hobby to hide information strictly for profit:

Spiders do not wobble
There is a “hidden” gene in HGW
There is a “genetically-fused” Granite gene in HGW
Champagne do not wobble
Caramels do not have fertility issues
Caramels do not have kinking issues
Desert females breed just fine
Scaleless females breed just fine
The entire fracas around the compatibility of Candy with Albino
…

Given the number of people that have asserted they were performing test breedings only to have them all drop completely silent about the matter (and not answer even when directly asked), it would not surprise me in the least to find out that an answer is already known

inspirationexotics · April 1, 2024, 3:58pm

You are correct in that regard. I guess I still remain an optimist, despite the many examples to the contrary.

rlremington · April 6, 2024, 5:52pm

I haven’t been paying much attention to monarch. An ultramel test is available now, right? Has it been tried on monarch to confirm if the same mutation or not? Guessing it’s proven not the same and the remaining question is if ultramel and monarch are alleles/compatable or not.

inspirationexotics · April 8, 2024, 5:28am

They are still working on a monarch test. If the ultramel test has come back positive on a monarch animal, we haven’t been told, but given the ultramel test has been out for a while and how diligent RGI is about testing, I would surprised to learn the ultramel test works on monarch. The fact that they’ve been working on monarch for many months implies that it is different from ultramel. If the same, they would have discovered that in the process of creating the monarch test.