Could Piebald be inc-dom rather than recessive?

[chesterhf]

No, we always have “two copies” of each gene because chromosomes come in pairs. Heterozygous is when the two copies are different, referred to as different alleles. Homozygous is when both copies are the same allele

[eaglereptiles]

@eaglereptiles

has received 2 different copies of a certain gene at one location

By this I mean 1 WT copy and 1 Mutated copy of the gene at one location.

[t_h_wyman]

@eaglereptiles

Just to help add to this, as this is one of the things that make genetics a little bit tricky to follow in the hobby.

Incomplete Dominant - white snake + red snake = pink snake.

Codominant - white snake + red snake = white & red snake.

God do I hate that school genetics lesson…

Okay so, not that I want to get into full on lecture mode but phenotype has nothing to do with inc-dom versus co-dom. Inc-dom describes an expression pattern for a dominant allele whereas co-dom describes a relationship between two separate alleles
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@eaglereptiles

would we call it Piebald/ Super Piebald or keep it as it is and have a “het” piebald that isn’t technically a het, like HRA?

@mnroyals

I believe technically they are het as het just refers to the term heterozygous not necessarily means recessives.

As MN notes, they are still hets regardless of recessive or dominant so you just stick with hetPied/Pied

HRAs are true hets because genetically they carry two different alleles (WT and RedAx) in the same way het Pied carry two different alleles (WT and Pied) in the same way het Albino carry two different alleles (WT and Albino) in the same way Lesser carry two different alleles (WT and Leucistic). All of them are het regardless of the visual expression of their het status or the names we give them
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@chesterhf

Chris Hardwick is telling people that blade is not a distinct morph but rather just how people describe super clean looking clowns…

Chris is completely in error there. Blade is definitely a heritable trait in and of itself and has been separated from Clown. It is just a GRP gene and there have been quite a few of them identified over the years (kind of like all the different Granite genes)
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@mnroyals

I think we should classify morphs like Butter or Black Pastel as Het Butter, Het Black Pastel since they are heterozygous

That does not work because you would have to rename them as hetSuperBlk and hetBluEL (and so on and so on and so on) because we label all of our hets based on the homozygous visual - e.g., het Albino. HRA works because the homozygous visual is RedAxanthic
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@chesterhf

Homozygous is when both copies are the same allele

Just so

[biologicalcanvas]

Labeling dominant mutations with “heterozygous” would be redundant due to them being visually distinguishable. Since recessive mutations can’t be consistently distinguished visually from a normal the heterozygous label is necessary.

Regarding inc-dominant vs codominant, t_h_wyman is the go to genetics wizard around here but I have seen other qualified individuals with a different opinion, such at Paul Hollander at the ball python forums: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?52847-A-Lesson-in-Basic-Genetics&p=2515394&viewfull=1#post2515394

I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as it’s often made out to be but I’m not qualified to dispute any claims one way or the other.

Regarding whether Pied should be reclassified as a dominant mutation vs recessive. I feel like a certain accuracy rate of being able to visually distinguish hets would have to be a prerequisite to a reclassification.

[osbornereptiles]

Would 16 years of 100% accuracy across many different combos, and hundreds if not thousands of animals qualify?

[eaglereptiles]

@t_h_wyman

Okay so, not that I want to get into full on lecture mode but phenotype has nothing to do with inc-dom versus co-dom.

And now I’m back at square one . I’m willing to take that lecture though if it’s on offer.

@t_h_wyman

whereas co-dom describes a relationship between two separate alleles

Would this be along the lines as Piebald and Spider creating a high white snake?

@t_h_wyman

Chris is completely in error there. Blade is definitely a heritable trait in and of itself and has been separated from Clown

I have zero weight in this argument but I agree with you here. Blade is definitely it’s own thing.

@t_h_wyman

It is just a GRP gene

This made me forget I was writing a reply and go down a Wikipedia rabbit hole, I’m still not sure I quite get this term.

I ask with real enthusiasm that you fill in some of the Glossary - Wiki (In Progress).

[owalreptiles]

@t_h_wyman

Are you saying we should force the rest of the genetics world to play by the rules that ball python breeders/herpers come up with rather than telling the herpers to get their act together and start being aware of the actual scientific field that is well established and understood with defined rules and terminology?? That seems like a might-bit Kevin thing to do LOL

Sorry, I am pimping you pretty hard there and I think we know one another well enough for you to know I am doing it in a good-natured way. But… that is kind of what you are suggesting

Oh we can have fun Travis and I can’t really take offence because this:

@t_h_wyman

Recessive/dominance is considered against the WT allele of the given gene. Different genetic backgrounds are irrelevant as the relationship between these alleles remains the same

Is Exactly what I’m saying

@t_h_wyman

And there is zero doubt that no combos show het Albino.

So why is it that two of the same things behave differently? Or is it really that the two things behave differently because they are different but we as a hobby are too stubborn accept that?

Some will argue about the het albino, that’s why I brought it up. Personally I will throw hypo and clown into the mix with pied. I don’t think the stubbornness comes from denial, it’s how do you actually classify? Classification puts things in neat little boxes and we both know real life don’t work that way. Call it recessive and people wanna know why it’s painfully obvious in a champ cinny. On the other hand call it inc-dom and het pied to a normal leaves people guessing.

@t_h_wyman

Lesser is not recessive to Bamboo. Fire is not recessive to Lemonback. Lesser/Fire are less expressed or less impactful mutations, but they are not recessive

They aren’t expressed in the heterozygous form and only in the homozygous form. Isn’t that the definition of recessive besides bamboo/lemonback not being WT?

[owalreptiles]

@t_h_wyman

Chris is completely in error there. Blade is definitely a heritable trait in and of itself and has been separated from Clown. It is just a GRP gene and there have been quite a few of them identified over the years (kind of like all the different Granite genes)

Absolutely sean bradley showed it plain as day in some of his pairings when he was in the hobby, can easily see normals, blades, clowns and blade clowns. Later on people went farther and made super blades and super blade clowns. I’m surprised someone would even make such a claim. Blade as far as we can tell originated in BHBs clowns. Sean bought them and bred them as a reduced line of clown, later discovering is was a separate gene all together.

[chesterhf]

@owalreptiles

Absolutely sean bradley showed it plain as day in some of his pairings when he was in the hobby, can easily see normals, blades, clowns and blade clowns. Later on people went farther and made super blades and super blade clowns. I’m surprised someone would even make such a claim. Blade as far as we can tell originated in BHBs clowns. Sean bought them and bred them as a reduced line of clown, later discovering is was a separate gene all together.

Oh definitely, I have a gorgeous blade het clown who is clearly not a normal. I can’t guarantee I’d be able to pick blade out of a lineup of morphs that are similar to normals but aren’t, but she definitely looks different.

[nathan_e]

I just marvel and sit back and watch the discussion of genetics while the only credentials I have is highschool biology under my belt . But seriously though, thank you for putting in the very long responses to educate people such as myself.

Edit: Gotta thank @chesterhf as well for putting in the effort of sharing info too!

[t_h_wyman]

@eaglereptiles

I’m willing to take that lecture though if it’s on offer.

Ugh. Ugh I tell you! LOL

If I get enough of a head of steam about me I can see about trying to draft it all up. In the interim, it might just be easier to direct you back to my visit to either Reptile Gumbo podcast or Morelia Python Radio podcast.
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@eaglereptiles

Would this be along the lines as Piebald and Spider creating a high white snake?

Nope, Spider and Pied are totally different genes, not alleles. What we see there is synergy
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@eaglereptiles

I’m still not sure I quite get this term.

Genetic
Reduced
Pattern

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@eaglereptiles

I ask with real enthusiasm that you fill in some of the Glossary

Again I tell you - UGH!
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@owalreptiles

because this:

@t_h_wyman

Recessive/dominance is considered against the WT allele of the given gene. Different genetic backgrounds are irrelevant as the relationship between these alleles remains the same

Is Exactly what I’m saying

Then I am confused because I got the impression you were saying we can only determine inc-dom in an animal that is fully wild-type other than being het for the gene in question while I am saying it does not matter if there are zero other morphs or fifteen other morphs. So it seemed to me that we were on two different wavelengths
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@owalreptiles

Personally I will throw hypo and clown into the mix with pied

I do not, and never have, worked with eitherthese morphs so I cannot ante in on them from a personal side. However, at least with Hypo, I would not be at all surprised
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@owalreptiles

They aren’t expressed in the heterozygous form and only in the homozygous form.

What do you mean Lesser and Fire are not expressed in the heterozygous form?? Lesser or Fire are the heterozygous form…

[eaglereptiles]

@t_h_wyman

Ugh. Ugh I tell you! LOL

That’s a strange way of saying " I love it when you ask me lots of questions"

@t_h_wyman

it might just be easier to direct you back to my visit to either Reptile Gumbo podcast or Morelia Python Radio podcast.

Funnily enough, that is where I was heading today. I’m hunting you down online and making a playlist of all your podcasts and interviews. I actually have the Reptile Gumbo podcast saved to my homepage as I had wanted to relisten to it and note down a ton of questions I had the first time through (bet you can’t wait ) …

@t_h_wyman

Nope, Spider and Pied are totally different genes, not alleles. What we see there is synergy.

Do we have examples of Co-dom in the hobby?

@t_h_wyman

G enetic
R educed
P attern

So I am happy I now know a new term, but also sad at the amount of time I spent reading about gastrin-releasing peptide and wondering how that linked into the conversation

@t_h_wyman

Again I tell you - UGH!

Your welcome

[t_h_wyman]

@eaglereptiles

That’s a strange way of saying " I love it when you ask me lots of questions"

Oh, I appreciate the questions… I just only have so many hours in the day LOL
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@eaglereptiles

I’m hunting you down online and making a playlist of all your podcasts and interviews

If it helps, I think I have all of them saved on my IG stories profile under ‘Podcasts’
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@eaglereptiles

I actually have the Reptile Gumbo podcast

I was on there twice… Cannot remember which one I discussed the co-dom thing
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@eaglereptiles

Do we have examples of Co-dom in the hobby?

Nope

[owalreptiles]

@t_h_wyman

Then I am confused because I got the impression you were saying we can only determine inc-dom in an animal that is fully wild-type other than being het for the gene in question while I am saying it does not matter if there are zero other morphs or fifteen other morphs. So it seemed to me that we were on two different wavelengths

I didn’t read it that way and imo that just makes classification muddy as can be. So if that’s the case pied clown and hypo are inc-dom and probably many more.

@t_h_wyman

What do you mean Lesser and Fire are not expressed in the heterozygous form?? Lesser or Fire are the heterozygous form…

Lesser paired with bamboo or fire paired with lemon back doesn’t express anymore than albino paired with normal.

Super lesser potential bugs eyes
Lesser bamboo no reports of bugs eyes
Super bamboo no reports of bug eyes

Super fire yellow splotches normally
Lemon back fire white snake
Super lemonback white snake

Albino looks albino
Het albino normal looks normal
Normal looks normal

However pair a lesser/fire with normal it expresses but pair a candy and albino and it also expresses.

So the only difference I’m seeing is the relation to normal.

[t_h_wyman]

@owalreptiles

that just makes classification muddy as can be

The reasoning behind it is straight forward, I just think it makes educating most of the hobby up to the right level particularly difficult
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@owalreptiles

Lesser paired with bamboo or fire paired with lemon back doesn’t express anymore than albino paired with normal.

You are doing an apples to oranges here. A dominant-negative effect to a loss-of-function

The reason you see the bias toward the stronger expression mutant in the heteroallelic super when dealing with a dominant-negative is because of the lack of any ability to recover functionality.

This differs from a loss of function mutation because any allele that is not an absolute loss of function is capable of providing a degree of recovery

Not the greatest analogy (but the best I can come up with on the fly here):

The Fire/Lemonback-type relationship is the difference between removing the tires from the wheels of a car (Fire) and removing the wheels entirely (Lemonback). You take all the tires off the wheels (SuperFire) and a car might still be driveable, or it might not (splotchy SuperFire versus all-white SuperFire). You take all the wheels off a car (SuperLemonback) and it is not going to be driveable. You take the tires off two wheels and totally remove the other two wheels (Fire/Lemonback heteroallelic super) and the car is not going to be driveable.

The WT/Candy/Albino-type relationship is more like two guys painting a wall with airbrushes. If the air line to one guy’s brush totally fails (total loss of function; het Albino) whereas the other guy’s brush works at about 10% (partial loss of function; het Candy) then the wall will still get a partial coating of paint

How these two mutation types differ is in relation to the WT allele for each:

Remove two tires (Fire) or two wheels (Lemonback) while leaving the other two alone (WT), your car may drive, but it is not going to do it well. The effect of the mutation is negative and it dominates over the WT.

Break one airbrush (het Albino or het Candy) but leave the other fully functional and the wall still gets fully painted. The effect of the mutation is unnoticed because the WT dominates over it

[jimmy82]

I’ve heard of being able to tell her ghost/hypo bc the babies are lighter in color and kusko pics out het clowns bc the patterns are cleaner so maybe most of what is none is incorrect and not document well or at all

[saleengrinch]

For the record recessive traits don’t show physical indicators by very definition. So I don’t think there is any type of “het influence” I think it’s very clear in the sire and the two hatchlings there is an additional gene. I’m usually the guy saying there isn’t one there lol. But I think it’s pretty evident in this case imo. And I have hatched plenty of pieds ghosts and hets of such. But I’m wrong plenty of times. But I’m not going to be convinced otherwise on this.

[snowgyre]

Recessive traits in ball pythons can, do, and will sometimes express changes in the heterozygous form. People who work a lot with clowns and pieds will agree. Even the recent debate over whether paint/sentinel was recessive or codominant due to heterozygous expression lends credence to the idea that some recessives can express somewhat in the heterozygous form. This has been a pretty significant debate in the ball python community for a long time, about whether some of these classical “recessive” genes actually act more as a codominant. In my experience, they do. It probably has more to do with what seems to be more genetic plasticity in reptiles (and amphibians) than in mammals or birds though. Things we define as recessive in mammals rarely express anything in the heterozygous form, and most of this genetic research originated with domesticated mammals and birds. (I’m intentionally ignoring plants here - tetraploidy is a trip.)

Are those expressions always indicative of a het at play in reptiles? Not necessarily, no. But when creating possible hets it’s generally a safe bet that animals with extreme displays (ringers, dorsal striping, extremely light color saturation, white bellies, ‘railroad tracks’, etc.) of typically mundane combos are going to prove as hets. This has been well established for as long as I can remember, and I’ve been doing this a while.

[wmb1965]

I am not experienced enough to know whether their are influences with Hets or not. But 9 times out of ten when I am watching a video about recessive genes almost all of the people say that there are het influences. But As I have said I don’t know if there is or not.
I have looked on my Enchi Mystic Spider Het Pied girl and I don’t see what they are talking about. Maybe my girl doesn’t have the right genes for Het influences or maybe I just don’t know what I’m looking for. Which is probably the maybe just don’t know. LOL!
Regardless of anyone’s beliefs, I learn a lot from each of you no matter what you have to offer to teach me.
I admire all of you for your dedication for the reptiles you keep and the knowledge you pass on to future generations of snake breeders like myself. Thank you!

[saleengrinch]

@snowgyre

Recessive traits in ball pythons can, do, and will sometimes express changes in the heterozygous form.

Then by scientific definition it would be an incomplete dominant trait. Your literally trying to change the definition of a recessive trait. Ball pythons follow the same genetics everything else does lol.