Hey!
Do any of you have a problem with the reproduction of spider Ball pythons?
If any of you don’t know, the spider morph in Ball pythons is associated with neurological issues, which van cause the snakes head to “wobble”.
Seriously? Not to be rude but……
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First off…just in case you weren’t aware, there are other genes that can cause issues in BPs as well.
It’s up to a breeder to decide if they want to risk producing those types of animals or if they want to avoid potential problems with offspring.
If you have a problem with spider then you should realistically have a problem with the rest of the complex of wobble morphs. Especially champagne because it is the second most common wobble gene in a single gene, and also a lethal super like spider. The rest of the complex can have varying amounts of wobble when combined or singular.
Those genes are:
- Black Head
- Champagne
- Chocolate
- Cypress
- Hidden Gene Woma
- Sable
- Spotnose
- Woma
- Wookie
Most of these are in the popular combos currently. Especially with clown combos.
Spider wobble can be unfortunate. Severe cases are actually fairly uncommon. Many people posting video proof of the wobble have visually stressed and unwell animals which makes the condition worse. Many were also intended to be a shock value for attention and clicks. A serious wobble is something an experienced owner should have, not a YT or insta influencer looking for more followers
Breeders should ideally be weeding out severe wobblers or animals producing offspring with bad wobble. That way there is less of a risk in producing them. But even a spider with a very mild wobble can produce a bad wobble. You cannot separate the gene from the problems it causes in the inner ear.
Unlike leopard geckos with enigma gene, most spider BPs can live fairly regular lives with the right care. A spacious floorplan with reduced height to avoid potential falls and comfortable hides. Most can eat just fine except for the most severe or stressed out ones.
Leopard geckos with similar ear and balance issues from the enigma gene will waste away because they can loose coordination with leg movements and alligator roll. Eating is very difficult with bad cases, even when hand fed.
It’s much more different when you can have a single gene causing an issue like cancer in Lemon frost leopard geckos or the wobble in Enigma ones. Those are banned for sale on MM.
Spider has a very long and complex history, multiple other genes in the complex that can cause wobble and one that can actually mask the wobble from spider and make them seem ‘normal’. It would be difficult to just remove that whole chunk of genes.
It’s like asking dog breeders to stop breeding poodles because of epilepsy or english bulldogs because of the multitude of health issues.
There’s also groups that will just use spider as an excuse to try and regulate BP breeding. The intention isn’t to worry about the animal’s health… it’s to put more control over who is able to breed what or looking to limit your rights to ownership.
There are some legit groups out there that do care and worry. You just have to be careful about which one you find.
In the end though it really just depends on what each breeder wants from their pairings.
I own a spider, but she isn’t in my breeding plans. She’s just my grumpy gal. Lol.
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I am one of those not afraid to be outspoken about being against breeding any genes that are observed to wobble, not just spider, which means I personally do not breed and speak out against breeding spider, champagne, woma, hidden gene woma, spotnose, super chocolate, super cypress, and super sable. In my opinion, if the animal has the potential for its quality of life to be decreased by a gene/morph, ethically we should not be perpetuating that morph. In every other realm of breeding (dogs, horses, etc.) it is unacceptable to produce animals with genetic defects - it is something that irreputable or “backyard breeders” do - and I’m not sure why snake breeders have come to view this any differently. One of the first things I learned to do was recognize every single morph that wobbles, so that I would never accidentally buy or breed them. There is no way to “breed out” the wobble, as “bad” wobblers can produce very minimally wobbling offspring and minimally wobbling parents can produce severely wobbling offspring. It’s also important to remember that it’s not just their balance that is affected - it also affects muscle tone near the head/neck/tail and gripping strength, their righting reflex (ability to tell up from down), and other basic body functions. Many people argue that it doesn’t cause them pain, which may be true, but if the inner ear study is true (we still need a lot more data) it’s essentially living with vertigo and as someone who has experienced vertigo, it is both debilitating and incredibly disorienting, so I don’t see why we should be okay with intentionally producing animals with this defect. Just like with dogs, we should stop producing these animals - French bulldogs, for instance, are prone to seizures and early death and I do not believe these dogs should be bred either.
It unfortunately comes down to each and every individual person’s ethics and what they view as acceptable, but I have always been and will always be in favor of banning wobble morphs from being sold at expos to discourage their production and I try hard to support breeders who don’t work with wobble genes when I’m buying animals for my breeding program. This is something I often get pushback for, which is fine. When I started breeding one of the reasons I started was because I wanted to be an example of a breeder who did not prioritize my aesthetic preference over the health and wellbeing of the animal. As a hobby we have to learn to police ourselves, or outside organizations like animals rights groups and government municipalities will try to do it for us. Since I joined the hobby the production of spider in particular has dropped quite a bit, and I sincerely hope that that trend will continue with other genes in the complex as well.
It’s not like I haven’t been affected by this personally. The very first morph I ever wanted to produce was a bumblebee. The moment I found out about the wobble syndrome, I took that off of my breeding list. I still love how beautiful spider combos are but I will never, ever produce wobble animals.
That said, armiyana’s post about the other genes and the complex history gives you a good insight into some of the various views about the genes.
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While I agree that spiders, or any wobbly morph, should not be bred, I can not hate that which I don’t understand. I never wanted one after finding out about the wobble. Years ago I purchased a jaguar carpet python and was ignorant of the wobble. The breeder never mentioned it and I had not seen any info about it. Imagine trying to solve this issue with no information.
With that said, a few years ago I was offered an enchi mojave spider hatchling. He/she/it is a beautiful snake. I write he/she/it because I feel it is irrelevant to my keeping it. It will never reproduce in my care. I accepted the animal because I needed to see for myself what all the negativity is about. And was told the animal was destined to be a wrist watch strap.
It is kept in a low cage with no climbing apparatus and has a shallow water dish for safety.
When handled it has a slight tilt to its head. Feeding, as many know, is stressful for spiders or any snake for that matter and he/she/it is a terrible shooter. Normally relaxed there doesn’t seem to be a bad wobble but feeding(f/t) it rolls on its side and strikes way off mark. I just lay the prize on its neck after the strike and leave it alone.
Again, this snake will never reproduce.
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Well said (inspiration exotics). As a corn snake breeder I feel the same way about the scaleless corns and the bug eye issue with palmettos. It’s one thing to bred various color and pattern mutations, another to propagate physical (or in the spider complex of balls, neurological issues) deformities.
I don’t judge, but (my opinion) sometimes just because something looks good doesn’t mean it is good, or good for the hobby.
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Add to the list of know lethal homozygous: HGW and Woma
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This is something I have cautioned on many times and I still feel people are ignoring. If you enact a “ban” on one morph or group of morphs, it will NOT stop there. People will take issue with ‘bug-eye’ in homozygous Butter/Lesser and so we lose the BluEL complex. Then you have the know linked microphthalmia between BluEL and Pied so you lose Pied. Also, kinking and buckbilling in homozygous BlkPastel and Cinny so you lose the SuperBlk complex. Speaking of kinking, Caramel is lost. And since people like to rumour monger, add Ultramel because people assume all T+ are the same. And since we are now talking about types of albinism, T- have known sensitivity to UV and blindness so we lose Albino and Candy. And since Banana kind of looks like Candy, we should assume it will have issues too so now it goes away…
Without even trying I have just removed over two dozen morphs from the hobby. Now imagine a group of people putting actual effort in to getting morphs removed. It would not take them long to gut the hobby.
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I am sorry but it is a fallacy to claim that other animal breeds are free of this kind of behaviour and only herpers sink to such despicable levels for the sake of their craft
Literally every dog breed has some associated issue with it and the breed standards actively encourage the retention with those issues - deafness in dalmatians, CHD in German Shepherds and retrievers, merle in multiple breeds causing blindness or deafness or lethality in the homozygous depending on breed…
Likewise, breed standards in cats - manx and munchkin in cats are both homozygous lethal. Scottish fold have bone and cartilage issues…
The same in horses, frame overo has a lethal homozygous…
Every specialized corner of animal breeding has a dark side. That is just a fact. I am not saying that fact is justification to behave badly, but denying it exists is to deny reality
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In the end, as will all sectors of animal keeping, it should come down to the individual breeders/keepers
I absolutely love French bulldogs, but I will never have one for myself because of the huge rate of SB they suffer. Because of my ex, I ended up with a toy chihuahua for many years. She was a wonderful dog but I will never get another for myself because of the trauma that females suffer giving birth. I never liked how Spiders looked so I was never interested in adding them to my collection. Strangely, I liked Woma and have worked with it from basically the beginning of my collection. Likewise, I love Cypress and before it was know to be in the same complex I made the Cypress/Woma combo. I will NEVER make that combo again, but I will still work with both genes individually
All of those are my choices and mine alone. I have no right to force those choices on anyone else and no one has the right to force their choices on me
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