Hey!
Do any of you have a problem with the reproduction of spider Ball pythons?
If any of you don’t know, the spider morph in Ball pythons is associated with neurological issues, which van cause the snakes head to “wobble”.
Seriously? Not to be rude but……
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First off…just in case you weren’t aware, there are other genes that can cause issues in BPs as well.
It’s up to a breeder to decide if they want to risk producing those types of animals or if they want to avoid potential problems with offspring.
If you have a problem with spider then you should realistically have a problem with the rest of the complex of wobble morphs. Especially champagne because it is the second most common wobble gene in a single gene, and also a lethal super like spider. The rest of the complex can have varying amounts of wobble when combined or singular.
Those genes are:
- Black Head
- Champagne
- Chocolate
- Cypress
- Hidden Gene Woma
- Sable
- Spotnose
- Woma
- Wookie
Most of these are in the popular combos currently. Especially with clown combos.
Spider wobble can be unfortunate. Severe cases are actually fairly uncommon. Many people posting video proof of the wobble have visually stressed and unwell animals which makes the condition worse. Many were also intended to be a shock value for attention and clicks. A serious wobble is something an experienced owner should have, not a YT or insta influencer looking for more followers
Breeders should ideally be weeding out severe wobblers or animals producing offspring with bad wobble. That way there is less of a risk in producing them. But even a spider with a very mild wobble can produce a bad wobble. You cannot separate the gene from the problems it causes in the inner ear.
Unlike leopard geckos with enigma gene, most spider BPs can live fairly regular lives with the right care. A spacious floorplan with reduced height to avoid potential falls and comfortable hides. Most can eat just fine except for the most severe or stressed out ones.
Leopard geckos with similar ear and balance issues from the enigma gene will waste away because they can loose coordination with leg movements and alligator roll. Eating is very difficult with bad cases, even when hand fed.
It’s much more different when you can have a single gene causing an issue like cancer in Lemon frost leopard geckos or the wobble in Enigma ones. Those are banned for sale on MM.
Spider has a very long and complex history, multiple other genes in the complex that can cause wobble and one that can actually mask the wobble from spider and make them seem ‘normal’. It would be difficult to just remove that whole chunk of genes.
It’s like asking dog breeders to stop breeding poodles because of epilepsy or english bulldogs because of the multitude of health issues.
There’s also groups that will just use spider as an excuse to try and regulate BP breeding. The intention isn’t to worry about the animal’s health… it’s to put more control over who is able to breed what or looking to limit your rights to ownership.
There are some legit groups out there that do care and worry. You just have to be careful about which one you find.
In the end though it really just depends on what each breeder wants from their pairings.
I own a spider, but she isn’t in my breeding plans. She’s just my grumpy gal. Lol.
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I am one of those not afraid to be outspoken about being against breeding any genes that are observed to wobble, not just spider, which means I personally do not breed and speak out against breeding spider, champagne, woma, hidden gene woma, spotnose, super chocolate, super cypress, and super sable. In my opinion, if the animal has the potential for its quality of life to be decreased by a gene/morph, ethically we should not be perpetuating that morph. In every other realm of breeding (dogs, horses, etc.) it is unacceptable to produce animals with genetic defects - it is something that irreputable or “backyard breeders” do - and I’m not sure why snake breeders have come to view this any differently. One of the first things I learned to do was recognize every single morph that wobbles, so that I would never accidentally buy or breed them. There is no way to “breed out” the wobble, as “bad” wobblers can produce very minimally wobbling offspring and minimally wobbling parents can produce severely wobbling offspring. It’s also important to remember that it’s not just their balance that is affected - it also affects muscle tone near the head/neck/tail and gripping strength, their righting reflex (ability to tell up from down), and other basic body functions. Many people argue that it doesn’t cause them pain, which may be true, but if the inner ear study is true (we still need a lot more data) it’s essentially living with vertigo and as someone who has experienced vertigo, it is both debilitating and incredibly disorienting, so I don’t see why we should be okay with intentionally producing animals with this defect. Just like with dogs, we should stop producing these animals - French bulldogs, for instance, are prone to seizures and early death and I do not believe these dogs should be bred either.
It unfortunately comes down to each and every individual person’s ethics and what they view as acceptable, but I have always been and will always be in favor of banning wobble morphs from being sold at expos to discourage their production and I try hard to support breeders who don’t work with wobble genes when I’m buying animals for my breeding program. This is something I often get pushback for, which is fine. When I started breeding one of the reasons I started was because I wanted to be an example of a breeder who did not prioritize my aesthetic preference over the health and wellbeing of the animal. As a hobby we have to learn to police ourselves, or outside organizations like animals rights groups and government municipalities will try to do it for us. Since I joined the hobby the production of spider in particular has dropped quite a bit, and I sincerely hope that that trend will continue with other genes in the complex as well.
It’s not like I haven’t been affected by this personally. The very first morph I ever wanted to produce was a bumblebee. The moment I found out about the wobble syndrome, I took that off of my breeding list. I still love how beautiful spider combos are but I will never, ever produce wobble animals.
That said, armiyana’s post about the other genes and the complex history gives you a good insight into some of the various views about the genes.
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While I agree that spiders, or any wobbly morph, should not be bred, I can not hate that which I don’t understand. I never wanted one after finding out about the wobble. Years ago I purchased a jaguar carpet python and was ignorant of the wobble. The breeder never mentioned it and I had not seen any info about it. Imagine trying to solve this issue with no information.
With that said, a few years ago I was offered an enchi mojave spider hatchling. He/she/it is a beautiful snake. I write he/she/it because I feel it is irrelevant to my keeping it. It will never reproduce in my care. I accepted the animal because I needed to see for myself what all the negativity is about. And was told the animal was destined to be a wrist watch strap.
It is kept in a low cage with no climbing apparatus and has a shallow water dish for safety.
When handled it has a slight tilt to its head. Feeding, as many know, is stressful for spiders or any snake for that matter and he/she/it is a terrible shooter. Normally relaxed there doesn’t seem to be a bad wobble but feeding(f/t) it rolls on its side and strikes way off mark. I just lay the prize on its neck after the strike and leave it alone.
Again, this snake will never reproduce.
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