I’ve been considering Matham a motley, but reading up on the red factor gene and looking at images, I really can’t tell.
The pairing was ghost het motley x redfacfor motley/stripe het anery
The mother, Saedian, was sold to me as a hypo motley/stripe poss redfacfor, however in her clutch, only half showed hypo so I figure she’s red factor but only carries hypo. (I do not know the pairing that produced her). The red factor was somewhat a bonus on top of the genes I wanted when I got her, and I know little about the gene, I had thought it was recessive, but now I’m reading it’s not and am not sure if I correctly ID’d her clutch.
The father, Dwimor, is a ghost from unknown origins (petstore buy when I was super new to reptiles) who has been proven to carry motley from the two clutches he’s sired in my care, I know nothing else about what he does or doesn’t carry.
Dwimor (in blue and not very cooperative when pic was taken)
I also have kept one of Matham’s siblings. He’s pet only after a cat injury when he escaped his keep as a hatchling. I’ve labeled him as a hypo, not sure if that’s fully accurate, and as he won’t be bred (and I don’t even know if he’s actually male) I don’t fully care what he is except if it would help I’d his family.
So is Matham (and Saedi for that matter) Red Factor? I’d like to be a bit more confident in the future. Thanks for any help. I’ll take more pics when I get home if they’re needed.
Red Factor is incomplete dominant. So there’ll be some expression in hets, and more expression in homos/supers. I don’t see any obvious single-copy (het) RF in these pics, but it can be subtle, sometimes best observed by comparing RF and non-RF clutchmates.
I’m not an expert on Red Factor, but I’m not seeing anything that pops out as such. What I can tell you is that based on some of the photos, at least one of your animals is likely mis-IDed, and the lack of a full Hypo clutch from a Hypo x Ghost pairing would confirm.
Saedian, your female, appears to be Stripe. Motley is allelic to, and dominant over stripe, so a Motley-Stripe animal is almost always visually Motley. Your girl’s pattern appears too unbroken (unless there’s more patterning on top unseen in the photo) to be a visual allelic combo.
As for the Hypo, there are several genes that are Hypo types but not Hypo. You said only half the clutch appeared visual, which would rule out something like Strawberry, which is allelic. This is one of the issues with breeding animals with unknown lineage.
In my opinion, your female Saedian is not a Hypo Motley-Stripe but more likely a Masque Stripe. The patterning on her is too clean for Motley to be involved, and the colors, at least to me, look too dark for a traditional Hypo. It’s also possible your sire, Dwimor, also has Masque. Is there any way you can get belly photos of everyone?
@citricprincess, your female is definitely Stripe, no Motley involved. The width between her dorsal markings is a defining characteristic. It’s perfectly possible for Stripe animals to have connections between their stripes, cubes, and other things. Very messy Stripes can look quite similar to Motley, but the space between the markings is noticeable skinnier with Motley. Stripe commonly has a lightening and brightening, hypo-like effect. I don’t see Hypo in your girl. She has very typical coloring for a Stripe.
Since you’re getting Motley babies, the male is het Motley.
In fact, a Motley-Stripe animal is always visually Motley. Motley is highly varied in appearance, and it’s not possible to tell by looking whether Motley is homozygous Motley or Motley-Stripe. You’ve got an advantage for planning or ID purposes because you know any Motley babies are Motley-Stripe (like Matham, for instance). And any babies with typical saddles are het Stripe.
As far a RF, as @noodlehaus said, it’s not obvious to me. Belly pics and comparison pics would be helpful for that.
Thank you for the responce! This is proving enlightening :3
I knew Saedi wasis ID’d as soon as I was getting anerys and normals in her clutch, but sounds like it was further than I thought.
I’ve been keeping the snakes for years now, but have only bred two clutches, and the first was aucj more straight forward ghost het motley x anery het hypo motley. Much easier than this stuff.
I snagged some belly pics, and since you mentioned masque (another gene I’ve seen mentioned but didn’t look deep into), I tried to get some better head pics too.
I also found a pic of Saedi’s labels tub when I brought her home, and the pic the breeder sent me of her parents, though I don’t have the info of what her parents were
Hi! You have some very pretty snakes. Unfortunately, the breeder you got Saedian from mislabeled her. This presents itself with the issue of misinformation and not being able to trust the other genetics she is labeled for. I can help you ID stripe vs Motley and a motley pinstripe, but as mentioned previously, a motley stripe can display variations phenotypically (visually) and you would have to test for it.
As for helping ID the other genetics such as hypo and RF, we would honestly need photos in better lighting like outside in the shade if possible or near a window. Indoor lighting or bright sunlight can greatly alter the look/color of your animals. Eye photos would help as well.
Lots to work with there, thanks for the additional pics.
Saedi is het Anery, then, proven by breeding as well as her tub label. According to the pic of her parents, dad looks like either an extremely light Anery Stripe or more likely Ghost Stripe, making Saedi het Hypo as well. The dam must have been Motley-Stripe. Saedi was misidentified. She’s a clean Stripe.
Stripe commonly reduces facial markings, thins the nose band. I would say there’s no Masque involved, just Stripe. Masque is also variable, so it’s possible, but no reason to expect it.
Saedi’s belly has some coloring, but again, this is typical with Stripe. I see it all the time in mine. Red Factor does this, but again, it’s quite possible for it simply to be Stripe.
Well, it’s looking like the overall concensus is Saedian is a Stripe, and Matham is a Motley Stripe, then? A little disappointimg her mis ID leaves me á gene less than I thought I had, but I’m actually happy I hear she’s a true stripe. She does seem brighter/redder than most stripes I’ve see pictures of, but not as much as I expected her to grow into, so I’ll trust yalls greater experience that she’s within normal variation of the gene.
When i mentioned knowing she was misID’d from seeing anery and normal, I just meant that if she was hypo as sold, she’s only have hypos and ghosts when paired with a ghost.
I am confident Dwimor is a ghost. He wasn’t giving great pics here, but I do have two adult aneries, and the difference is obvious beside them. Plus he’s so far produced what I expect, I just have no idea if he’s hiding any hers besides the motley I proved already.
I may try to take an outside Pic later, though it does seem set to be overcast here in a way that won’t help lighting much, but it looks unlikely it will change much. Thank you all for your help. This will help with plans, and knowing what I’m looking at in the future
I’d love to see photos of Dwimor after he sheds, because I’m with @solarserpents on this one, he doesn’t look quite right to be a Ghost.
The thing is, there is a lot of natural variation in Aneries, and with you not knowing his origins, there could be other things at play as well to influence the overall color. His belly checkers, even in blue, seem very dark. If he were Het Hypo, you’d still get the expected Ghosts in the first clutch, because of the female he was paired to. As @midnightexotics said, photos in natural light of both parents would help. Overcast is actually fine, you don’t want really bright sun as it can wash out color.
@noodlehaus is spot on. The very best way to get pics to show coloring is outdoors on a cloudy day. Bright sunlight can wash things out.
The misidentification is surely a frustration. We get that, to be sure. On the up side, she’s a very good Stripe. The hatchling pic looks like her markings are very clean and extend far down her body. Full length stripes are hard to come by. That’s a nice thing to have, if you’re interested in making more Stripes.
Sounds like it’s good it’s still wanting to storm tonight. Woke up to sun but the clouds returned (I work nights so the daylight disappears fast on me lol)
Dwimor, though I do feel like my camera darkens his eyes and belly checkering a shade or two even in the natural light. Between his lighter eyes and the brownish tint and lower contrast on his pattern has me pretty sure he’s ghost, as well as him producing pretty near perfectly 50% hypo when paired with a het as far as I can tell, though if I’m mistaking him, I might mistake his spawn too I suppose.
Saedian. Her stripe really is perfect. No breaks at all with only two faded saddles along her back. Only reason I trusted she was a motley stripe was I thought stripe had a greater presence when both were there.
I’m also, for ref of what I’m used to, including Rifter, my anery (het hypo, motley, poss het Amel) girl, here, and the two daughters of Rifter and Dwimor I held into.
Losian, Dwimor x Rifter daughter. The clutch produced exactly what I expected the pairing to. I deemed her a motley ghost, mostly out of comparison with her obviously motley anery siblings, but the effects of motley does throw me off, so she could be a lighter motley anery.
Adwelian, Dwimor x Rifter. Pretty sure she’s just anery. Kept her cause her odd pattern is cool, even though it’s pretty certainly not genetic at all. She otherwise resembles her mother pretty close.
Seeing Saedian in that natural lighting actually has me thinking she may be red factor after all. She’s very saturated. I don’t think I see hypo with her.
Without seeing comparison pics at hatching, I don’t think Losian looks hypo either. The motley has a lightening effect and she looks extremely similar to my anery motley. I could be wrong though - hypo can be hard to pin down when there are also other genes visually present. Also keep in mind that anery typically looks different in males versus females, with mature males being browner and mature females being grayer/blacker.
Wow, he really changed a lot! He definitely looks more ghosty in those younger photos. And yes, Losi does look hypo when compared to her non-hypo clutchmates.
Interesting pics of a lovely group of snakes. Your male does look to be a Ghost as a hatchling. l wouldn’t assume that from his adult pics. I love Lisi’s markings. Saedian does look to have very saturated color. I wouldn’t feel comfortable about saying yes or no to Red Factor based on these pics. Saedian is similar in color to some of my Stripes. By way of comparison, here’s Twist. She’s a cube Stripe, no Red Factor.
Here are a couple pics of Carnelian. She’s Motley-Stripe, no Red Factor. She was thin when I got her in the spring and I’m still fattening her up. She’s looking better than this photo but it shows her color.
Thank you for the pics! I feel like it’s more difficult to find examples of adult animals, and since they do change so much, it limits my ability to compare mine to other examples, so I really appreciate the reference. It does make it appear that she’s probably not showing anything but stripe, but is perhaps a bright, clean example, so I can’t be too disappointed at all.
Losi is the pride of my first ever breeding attempt, I’m really happy with how pretty she’s grown.
And I hadn’t even realized how much Dwimor had darkened till I went digging for those old pics. Less notable when you watch it slowly happen over time. He’s also big. 779g at last weigh, larger than my girls by a fair bit. Amazed the emergency vet I had to take him to a few years back who hadn’t treated a corn at his size, but the vet was also amazed at his calm temperament, and since I got him as a stressed petstore return that freaked and whiplashed at the slightest touch, I was pretty happy with the compliment.
) to get more eyes/opinions on this one.
