It does matter 
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Thanks. 
I mostly just meant that I can’t offer any first-hand experiences or observations on the topic.
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“The reproductive physiology of snakes is so vastly different from that of humans (and mammals in general) that I’d be careful of putting too much stock in that comparison”
This:point_up:
The reason it isn’t recommended a 12 year old girl have a baby is mostly because they are not emotionally mature enough to raise another human being. If the body wasn’t physically capable it wouldn’t be possible.
Snakes are 100% instinct and they don’t have any concern of age or size. When they’re ready, their body tells them it’s time. To compare of snakes to humans shows lack of experience and understanding of how snakes behave.
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Well, in humans, another issue is that the pelvis of a 12-year-old girl, even if she’s hit puberty, is usually still small and undeveloped compared to an adult woman. Given the obscenely large size of a human infant’s head, that small pelvis can cause complications during delivery (adult women with small pelvises can experience the same complications).
But since snakes don’t have a pelvis, that’s a non-issue for them.
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As can happen in the same female at say 24 years old. We’re comparing apples to pumpkins.
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Yeah, that’s my point. Since snakes are built and reproduce totally differently from humans and other mammals, the same rules don’t apply.
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I was agreeing with your post I quoted. My response was actually for ascended.
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Also maybe because they are not finished growing? I personally think breeding anything that is still growing is going to stunt growth as extra energy is being put to the eggs/creatures growing inside them. No scientific evidence just my personal opinion.
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Case by case. My wife has been 5.3 and 105# since the 7th grade and we have two kids.
I wouldn’t pair a thin 1200g female but I would a robust healthy 1200g female. They go or they don’t. Again, we’re comparing two drastically different concepts here. My problem is arbitrary ideas casting shade on breeders because of… opinions. No breeder that know their animals well is going to risk the health of the animals in question.
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I have no problems breeding a 1200 gram female if she is done growing. A lot of them don’t get much bigger than this. My objection is when a snake clearly has a lot of growing left to do I don’t think they should be breed.
I do disagree here there are plenty of breeders who practice questionable practices.
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My sample size is relatively small but I’ve never heard of or seen a mature female top out at 1200 grams.
On the contrary I’ve seen numerous breeders with a larger volume of animals than anyone posting in this forum stating they pair females at 1200ish grams with no ill effects and I’d be shocked if they stopped growing at that weight. I personally have a few females I’ve began pairing at that size and by the time they ovulate and produce they’re 1500+g easy with no observable issues.
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I have two females over 5 years old that weigh 1300 most ball pythons are overweight in captivity probably why you don’t see a lot of females around this weight.
And what proof do they have that it hasn’t stunted them physically, can’t just look and tell? Why would we recommend breeding anything that itself hasn’t finished growing what’s the point? Are we in that much of a hurry to breed the females that we don’t take into consideration there growing?
I can’t honestly see one advantage of breeding early other than personal gains. I feel like if you honestly care about the females health you would let her finish growing.
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Look it up. it happens at 12 +, admittedly rare in our cultures but its not unknown. (I came across it in my previous life as a social worker) but it was more often in the past in our cultures, and more often still now in other cultures today than ours - all to the detriment of the girls health and that of the offspring.
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However, this much is agreed - a snake wont breed if it is not ready, but being ready (as in the human example above) is not the best for the snake or anything, if a snake or any animal does breed too young/small, it will have repercussions in the adult regaining weight and for the size and quality of offspring. and other complications as I have stated.
Also Agreed - Snakes are different to mammals, but we all (mammal or reptile) only have so much body reserves and producing young taxes those reserves and more so when not either are not at the peak it taxes those reserves more.
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Any part of the discussion involving the comparison of reptiles to humans (or really any mammal) in reference to reproduction is completely irrelevant.
Making a comparison to birds on the other hand would make complete sense. Try that.
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What’s the average weight of a full grown ball python in the wild?
I personally don’t know but without that data it’s tough to quantify what a full grown adult weight should be.
Because they continue growing and reproduce successfully thereafter. Ironically I recall in a video Justin Kobylka stating that his smaller first time females never become egg bound and that it has only occurred with older larger females.
Another perspective is that personal gain fuels the market. The market fuels lobbyist groups like USARK, considering the vast majority of donated funds come from big breeders making a profit. Those personal gains largely contribute to our ability to keep these animals at all. One season earlier can make a huge difference. If there is no observable detriment to breeding females earlier than the weight you expect them to top out at then there’s no reason not to. Especially when you have large scale breeders with the data to back it up. I think it is inaccurate to assume one does not care about their animals health because they choose to do something well proven not to be detrimental.
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We are all organisms with limited resources even less resources if the organism pushes the boundaries too early without enough reasorces (even plants, try to take a cutting that is too small compared to a larger one), .
But i will leave it there and not debate further or otherwise its just opinion and argument, The Reader can to make up their minds hopefully with doing their own research as opposed to just opinion.
I still maintain, health and body resources before breeding in any organism.
Edit: all opinions are valid for learning and discussion , even if i do not agree.
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This has zero to do with anything our snakes are living in captivity under our care where we control every single variable.
So your placing personal gain over the animals growth and health. Heavily feeding and breeding animals only benefits the keeper. You yourself just stated breeding a year earlier benefits you financially but where does it benefit the animals?
I feel we have a certain responsibility to the animals we keep to keep them healthy to the best of our ability. I don’t see how keeping them overweight and breeding them every single year is good for them. Sure they can and will do it but does anyone honestly think that’s healthy?!?!?
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It’s not healthy. Simple as.
I have females here, young ones. I have one that’s around 400g so you’re saying in 800g I can breed her?
I wouldn’t do it.
When the girls are ready, then I will breed. That be 2 years or 3. I’m in no rush as I want them healthy and happy before anything else.
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That’s not true at all. There is much insight to be gained from wild animals in comparison to those in captivity. If they aren’t living as long or thriving as they would in the wild we’re doing it wrong.
The topic at hand is breeding females earlier than the typical recommendation with qualifications such as, 1500 grams, 3 years of age, and "until they’ve finished growing ". If you claim it is unhealthy the burden is on you to provide the data. Given there are breeders with far more experience claiming it is not unhealthy I think it is dishonest to claim it is without the data to back it up. I’m not a fan of the virtue signaling smaller breeders/ keepers tend to exhibit against large scale breeders with far more knowledge, experience, and contribution to the lobbyist groups that gives us the ability to keep these animals in the first place.
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An attitude like that is why there are laws against back yard breeders/ puppy mills with dogs. By encouraging breeding above all you will create far more problems for the reptile industry which our hobby has enough already.
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