What does volume of production of animal have anything to do with it and how do you know what every person on this forum produces each year. If a person is large scale or small scale has zero to do with what they CHOOSE to do with their animals.
I think people take the size of breeders production/scale into consideration way too much. Just because a person has a large facility with tons of animals does not mean they have any more experience than a small scale breeder. I have seen many people come in spends thousands upon thousands over the years and disappear within a few years because they did not have the knowledge or drive to stick with it.
In any scientific analysis the larger the sample size the more credible the conclusion. I trust data compiled from a respected breeder who has been doing it for 20+ years with a high volume far more than a breeder doing it for 5 with a low volume for the simple fact that they have more data. Science over feelings.
. Problem is animals rights groups aren’t going to agree with your “science” they are going to say you are only using the animals for monetary gains. And your going to have a hard time convincing them other wise when advocating heavily breeding animals year in and year out. I’m not the enemy here I want everyone to be able to breed there animals. But if we as a community are not pushing responsible breeding first profit second the animal rights groups will rip through us as a whole. Snakes is my passion in life so I take this very seriously we are already under attack why give them more reasons to pass laws against our hobby. Breeding a year early is totally not worth losing our ability to breed at all.
I find it far fetched to assume animal rights groups would find breeding ball pythons at 1500 vs 1200 grams as an attacking point with no data to back it up.
Again, data. Real information. Not “i feel like”. Actual experience and information dictates what is or isn’t responsible breeding.
I’m all for responsible breeding. Having the means to house, feed, maintain animals with a high standard for as long as necessary should be a prerequisite for anyone considering it. If an animal is at risk it shouldn’t be bred. The idea that pairing younger and/ or smaller females is risky to their health is not backed up by any quantifiable data thus it is in poor taste to assume anyone who does so “does not care about the health of their animals”. I understand your perspective but strongly disagree with you on that.
I wouldn’t find it far fetched at all how many commercials of dogs in cages from the humane society do you see? You don’t think they will do the same with snakes showing in tubs small and undersized forced to breed for money. They will use anything they can don’t think for a minute they won’t use breeding still growing animals for profit against us. I think the amount of laws they are currently trying to pass should show you they are serious about shutting down our hobby as well.
Which of these big breeders have published data? Show me a peer reviewed and statistically significant study that a single one of these large breeders have released anywhere
I think it’s clear I’m not referring to peer reviewed scientific studies but stated evidence based upon vastly more experience. Koblyka posted above, great example there. He discusses it in a few podcasts and some of his videos as well. He’s certainly not the only one.
Where’s the first hand experience accounts of young females health being at detriment from being paired before they’re “fully grown”? Oh there is none? Weird.
Vastly larger amounts of first hand experience equates to more credible conclusions. That’s just a fact. This is getting a bit silly. No disrespect intended, we’ll have to agree to disagree here man.
Come on what? You only bring up science when it makes your point. With out any sort of control people can say anything doesn’t matter how many animals they have. There is no science backing up your side either. I stated from the beginning this is my opinion have zero science to back it up.
Science is ever changing and always evolving based on new data and new techniques brought fourth.
And you took my reply out of context to fit your narrative.
What data? A lot of this part of the hobby that revolves around breeding size is exactly that “i feel like” Where are the studys? Actually scientific hard and fast data other than well, i’ve been or so and so has been doing it for years so that makes it ok… It is all speculation and hearsay.
What we need to remember is this Ultimately we are responsible for the health safety and well being of these animals. They are still “wild animals” so to speak and will do what they have been doing since the dawn of man. They breed when they are ready to, even with us trying to move things along at a faster pace. Females will only develop and continue to develop follicles when and if THEY ARE READY to produce eggs. Without PROPER BODY WEIGHT AND AGE and conditions, they will not produce eggs no matter how hard we try and make them.
Yes in ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS the larger the sample size the better, but what we are doing is hardly scientific analysis So you would trust the “data” from a breeder who has been doing this for 20yrs and produces 150 clutches a yr but has only bred females at 1200g a handful of times over a breeder of 5 yrs who is much “smaller scale” and only produces 10 cluthes a yr but has always bred females at 1200g. Once again i ask what does *production size * have to do with it.
From a standpoint of knowledge, the idea which is derived from the word “science”, we have more information than ever regarding when it is appropriate, safe, and healthy to breed female ball pythons. The old outdated notions of “3 years”, “1500 grams”, or even “until they’re fully grown” as being the sole qualifiers for responsible breeding are no longer logical given the compiled data from experienced breeders.
No I didn’t. You stated your opinion that a breeders volume of production is weighed too heavily when considering their opinion. I disagreed. Simple as that.
Breeders I’m referring to are the OP of this post, Justin Kobylka. Billy Rows. Ozzy Boids. Etc. Individually they likely have vastly more experience and direction information on this subject than anyone who regularly posts here and I, rightfully, would place higher value on their opinions when coming to a conclusion. I think it is illogical to think otherwise but that’s fine if you disagree.
Compiled information from first hand experience is data. Understanding and coming up with logical scientific conclusions is not confined solely to formal peer reviewed studies.
100% agreed.
If someone wants to wait until their females are 1500 grams and 3 years, thats great, more power to ya. If they want to wait until they’re 2500 grams and 10 years old, great as well. What I disagree with is the idea that it is ok to look down upon those who choose to breed their females at 1200 grams and say they’re “not putting the health of the animal first”, given the most experienced and qualified breeders state otherwise.
Very simple. A breeder with higher production and more experience is more likely to try different approaches. I’m sure Justin, for example, has started pairing 1200g females more than a “handful of times”. And I’m sure he’s had many others that he’s waited longer on. Someone like that has the first hand experience, information/data, to come up with a qualified conclusion. When he says there is no detrimental effects in doing so I believe him over someone with far less experience.
Ultimately my point is that it’s wrong to look down upon people who use this information and pair their females earlier as though they’re being irresponsible and not “putting the health of the animal first”.
So it’s wrong to disagree with you? Your looking down on me for going on my own personal experiences and acting like they are not valid. Since I’ve only produced hundreds of snakes not thousands my opinion is invalid? So whoever produces the most knows the most period? Let’s not forget there are plenty of times big breeders have put out misinformation.
I wasn’t aware you were so familiar with inner workings of all these breeders that you know the exact amount of females that they have breed at 1200g over the years and that it is a large number. Pretty sure most of these breeders tend to wait until the females are at good body weight and condition before ever trying to pair a female at 1200g just because they can.
First hand knowledge and experience is very important and should always be taken into consideration when looking at something.
I am fairly certain he isn’t starting to pair them as soon as they hit 1200g just because he can. Fairly certain he takes way more into consideration prior to paring his females.
People should ALWAYS DO WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR ANIMAL whether that is pairing the animal at 1200g or at 1500g. That is and will always be my point.
And larger production size does not always mean better and more important.
If you think there are potential health concerns when pairing females at a smaller size or younger age I commend you for that. Where I disagree is saying those who disagree with that are irresponsible and not putting the health of the animals first. If you’re going to make such a statement you should have either first hand experience (how many 1200g females have you paired that caused detrimental health issues?) or know other qualified breeders with first hand experience. If you have none and know of no other qualified breeder with direct experience then I think it is wrong to condemn others with an opposing viewpoint, especially with the understanding that the most qualified breeders hold that opposing viewpoint.
I never said I know all their detailed statistics. I only know what they’ve stated. I’ve known Ozzy since the mid 2000’s. I’ve made it my primary area of study over the past few years to thoroughly analyze different opinions. I do a lot of driving and have listened to many podcasts they have been involved with (particularly Ozzy and Justin) where they often state their experience.
My own personal experience, albeit limited, mirrors their statements on the matter. I have paired multiple females at 1200-1300 grams with no detrimental effect. I don’t have the long term experience to say there wont be unforeseen detrimental effect so I lean on their expertise in that regard but given how vast their experience is I’m skeptical there will be any. Again, what I am in opposition to here is the idea that I’m irresponsible or not putting the health of my animals first when doing so.
I get your perspective, no disrespect intended. I think I made my point here and we’re not really getting anywhere so I will respectfully bow out of this thread. Much love to each of you, hope you all are having a great season.
What does volume of production of animal have anything to do with it and how do you know what every person on this forum produces each year. If a person is large scale or small scale has zero to do with what they CHOOSE to do with their animals.