I’m trying not to be too judgemental about this, because maybe there is some reason I am unaware of to advertise like this? But I keep seeing something in the MM listings that is bothering me a lot.
Is there a reason why you would show the hets of an animal if it has been listed as pet only? I keep coming back to thinking they are not really selling them as pet only because if I was looking for an animal to have as just a pet I wouldn’t care what hets it has.
Apologies if I am missing something obvious, I just really want to understand
I’d assume it’s just an attempt to give as complete of a genetic history/profile of an animal as possible. Some of it may just be out of habit. Ads for animals typically list all their known genetics.
All my snakes are pets, I have no intention of ever breeding any of them. But I still kinda like knowing that my boa is het VPI albino. It doesn’t matter in any practical sense, but it’s just nice to know. Same way I like knowing the sex and birthdays of my animals. None of that really matters, it doesn’t change anything about the way I care for them, but it’s just nice information to have about your pet.
I can see how that would be interesting to know, the reason it concerns me though is I have heard from multiple people in the reptile hobby that it is a known issue where people buy pet only snakes, then breed them anyways. This adds the genetics someone was trying to take out of the hobby right back into it.
Personally, I’d prefer to let the buyer know individually if they have any hets, as I have no problem with the new owner knowing them as long as they dont have breeding plans. I think its a lot easier to vet that way, but I am also a beginner in the hobby, hence the question.
I do understand what you’re saying, @knotsoframed. I can see the logic of that especially with youngsters who have minor defects being sold as pets.
I think it’s mostly just an effort to be thorough. I always try to provide as much information as I can about any animal. This also applies to the few whom I have sold as “pet only.”
It doesn’t make sense to me to change an animal’s information for sale. For instance when I sold an older animal who had retired from breeding to continue with education outreach, there was no reason to obscure her genetic info.
Now that MorphMarket can transfer animals to a buyer’s account, I think it’s even more logical to provide complete info for any animal.
Of course this is a valid worry. The only way to ensure that such an animal isn’t bred is for the breeder to keep them. There are rare exceptions, in cases where they go to a known person with a “return to me if you can’t keep it” policy.
I forgot about the tracking! Though is there anything really preventing someone from having multiple accounts? I’m sure its not common, just a consideration.
I think I just feel really frustrated that anyone would knowingly breed an animal that might produce offspring with reduced quality of life, so I get a little heated when its even a potential.
I’ll just have to do some thinking on what my personal policy on this will be. This is such a complicated topic
It’s against MorphMarket rules to have more than one account. Sellers must identify themselves as who they really are. We’re not sketch, lol.
Believe me, I totally understand what you’re saying. That possibility has always bothered me too, as I am sure it bothers all of us ethical folks. We do this because we care about the animals. Have I seen repeated “pet only” ads from certain breeders which just seem to be an attempt to look ethical while selling defective animals? Yes. Have I discussed this with them? You bet. Will those people ever get a dime of business from me? Never.
I figured it was against the rules, I just am not a seller on MM so I am unsure if the vetting process would account for these kinds of people trying to get away with it anyways. Even from the small amount of time I’ve been active in the community, I definitely feel like the vast majority are awesome people who just want to improve the hobby, but every hobby has their outliers.
In your opinion, are there any big ‘tells’ that they aren’t dealing with genetic issues ethically?
I also feel like breeders keeping these pet only animals is a potential issue, because not everyone is putting the time into caring for them even though they have a chance. For example, I had an experience already with someone who I wanted to buy a snake from where they told me the snake had some kind of an injury they couldn’t explain, and offered to sell them to me at a reduced price. The whole thing was kind of sketchy so I asked for some time to think about it, then the next day they explained that they culled them because they didn’t want to add them back to the community in case it was genetic and they just hadn’t noticed it. Personally, I don’t agree with their decision, but is this kind of reaction common?
I’m not sure which reaction you mean. Yours? I would be horrified, too. Theirs? Not someone with whom I would plan to do future business.
You’re right that most of us try our best to do our best for the animals in our care. Of course there are exceptions in any hobby, and it’s very sad that when people act unethically, animals can suffer.
My best advice for weeding out these people is to ask a lot of questions. Get to know about their standards of care. Look over all of their animals on offer, and check out their collection if possible, either in person or online. Ask about their projects, their past successes, even failures. If they’ve been selling for a while, check out their reviews. If you know anyone who has bought an animal from them, talk to them. Understand that any wonderful seller can still get a bad review, even an undeserved one. And yes, it’s harder to evaluate a newer seller. Still, it’s worth the effort for everyone’s sake - people and animals alike.
Now, all of that is a lot to try and do in the course of a single transaction. It’s better when it can happen organically over time. Breeders are busy people, especially at certain times of the year. But relationships matter, and I know I’ve had help from some of the busiest and best in the business. We all start somewhere.
Ultimately, there’s a certain amount of trust involved in any transaction. Again, most of us do this because we care about the hobby in every way. If your instincts are saying to stay away from a particular seller, listen.
Just want to add that, sadly, sometimes culling is the only kind thing to do. That’s not in itself an indication of unethical behavior. It can be the exact opposite, heart breakingly.
To my eyes, multiple seasons of multiple babies advertised with “small kink due to incubation” (which aren’t always so small) produced by the same parents is a problem.
Thank you for your thoughts! I did mean the sellers reaction. I was furious when he told me that he was culling them for that reason, but I brought it up because I wanted to be sure that wasn’t normal practice.
This was one of two interactions I have had on MM, but thankfully the other one turned out really well and I have a happy albino hognose that I absolutely adore! I think if the other one had been my first interaction though, I may not have come back to the website for a while. After the second one, I started obsessing over my local seller groups to see if anyone was selling locally, and because of that I made a new connection in the hobby and got a nice het snow without having to put him through the stress of shipping. Feels like every day I learn something new in the hobby!
Not sure how to quote you, but I am aware that there will someday inevitably be animals that I have to cull if I plan on breeding. I’m not excited about it, but it’s a part of nature that I’m not about to try to change. I really hope though that I can surround myself with people who know the difference between an animal that needs to be culled and an animal that needs special attention and care.
That makes sense though, and I think its a big part of why that seller reacted how they did, not sure though. Like I said, the whole thing was shady. They said it was a minor injury, but for some reason absolutely refused to send a picture of it, saying that its too hard to photograph the snake and that they didn’t want to put in the time. Definitely going to be a habit that I keep up!
Sadly, there will always be bad actors in any hobby. And refusing to disclose an animal’s recessive hets is absolutely no guarantee that “pet only” animals won’t be bred by unethical people. I’m not sure that gatekeeping certain information about animals for sale is an effective means of preventing their bad behaviour.
And if you are going to gatekeep information in an attempt to prevent unethical breeding behaviour, where do you draw the line? If you’re not breeding an animal, you don’t really need to know its sex, age, or visual morphs either. Should that information also be withheld in ads for “pet only” listings?
I think the best means of preventing this sort of thing would be to simply not offer “pet only” animals at a discount, thus removing the incentive for unethical breeders to buy them in the first place. But that comes with its own set of issues.
This is a huge red flag from a seller, as far as I’m concerned. Yes, snakes can be hard to photograph (some more than others), but if you’re selling snakes online, photographing the wiggly little buggers is quite literally your job. Suggesting that a complete stranger buy a snake (one with a potential defect, no less) completely sight-unseen is totally ridiculous. Definitely agree that seller sounded shady, and good on you for recognizing that.
I currently have an animal for sale as pet only and I have sold one before. I didn’t disclose the het on that previous sale because it was a possible, not 100%.
The unfortunate reality is there will always be people who will do unscrupulous things. This isn’t just an issue with reptiles. It’s something that happens all the time in the dog and cat circles. The only way some breeders can control it in that case is by altering the animal before sale, which is not a common practice in reptiles and also may fail if any reproductive tissue or cells remain. One of the support mods here has a cornsnake who was spayed twice and still built follicles after.
I actually worked with people who received a litter of grandchildren from ‘Chance’ from the Homeward Bound movies… Many puppies in that litter had hip dysplasia before they were even 6 months old. But hey… People wanted that dog. 9_9
As a seller or a buyer you need to feel out the person you’re dealing with. And some people can be really shady.
As far as the culling of animals just in case? Without knowing the full story it can go either way. If they’re seeing a pattern and worried that this particular pairing or line has had a higher incident of deformities or health conditions? It would be more understandable in reptile hobby than say a dog or cat. Again, you can neuter a dog to ensure no further breeding. You can’t guarantee a snake won’t be bred after they’re put of your hands…
Now culling in a case where a breeder just has too many animals? Or doesn’t want a particular dinker gene out before they work it out entirely…That should be absolutely unacceptable. But it still happens. I blacklist them immediately when I learn of anything like that.
I have a pair of snakes that I am no longer pairing because of issues popping up in the hatchlings. One had kinking issues in 2 clutches with 2 different mates. The other had fragile failure to thrive hatchlings in one clutch -hard belly and an enlarged heart in the other. The surviving hatchlings were pet only I rehomed… But again, I can’t control what happens now. I can only hope they are continued to be kept from breeding regardless of if the issue can be passed or was just isolated to the parents.
I just personally keep a 2 strike policy in case maybe one clutch was an incubator issue. 2 clutches though and I don’t want to have that 3rd strike.
I haven’t read through the comments thoroughly yet but I’ll go ahead and say along with others that its just to be as transparent as possible when it comes to the animal.
I’ve seen a LOT of people make posts of their pet reptiles asking what morphs they are because they weren’t given that information and they are simply just curious of what their reptile’s genes are.
Yes there are bad actors in all hobbies and some people will unfortunately breed pet only reptiles against warnings and common sense, but thats not everyone. You just have to keep a keen eye out for the red flags and avoid those people, the more everyone learns how to look out for this, the less business those bad actors get.
This post +the comments was very informative because I actually have a little Kingsnake I hatched out a few months ago with an odd growth just before the cloaca that its had since it hatched. My vet believes this is a benign growth but they don’t want to take a sample of it for testing because they feel it would be too risky for such a small snake. I will likely hold the little one back until it is big enough for a sample to be safely taken and diagnosed fully before I ever consider selling it, and it will be sold as pet only. The “growth” hasn’t changed since the snake hatched and there aren’t any other defects seen in the snake or its siblings so I can only keep an eye on it and hope it is indeed benign, and take it back to my vet if something changes.
But the little one is doing good, eating good, and is very fiesty lol.
In order to create a seller account, you have to send a photo of yourself as well as a photo of a legal ID where the photo matches that of the photo of yourself. Here’s the approval process info: Store Approval Process - MorphMarket
If there’s a bunch of animals from one clutch with issues and they aren’t willing to tell you how they determined it was an incubation issue vs genetic, avoid them. If they aren’t open about genes that come with issues, watch out. Check past sold animals and see if there’s a history of defects, and how they were handled. If the breeder has their pairing info available, see how closely related the animals are, and how genetically diverse their breeding programs are.
Not common and a huge red flag, because that animal was healthy enough to consider selling up until they decided to cull. Unless that animal has an injury or defect incompatible with quality of life, there’s no good reason to cull, at least in my personal opinion.
Highlight the text you want to quote and it should give you the option.
This one is me, and it’s worth noting that this was due to a mistake made by me (poor record keeping) that meant an animal that should have been pet only was bred. It highlights why the designation exists and the consequences that can result. I’ve spent thousands of dollars (no exaggeration) making sure she recovered and will live out the rest of her life as a well loved, spoiled pet and as a teaching story.
As for reason hets may be listed, some folks use the tools MM has to generate listings for offspring from a pairing, which will automatically include all the genetics possible. There’s also the fact that it’s not too horribly hard to track down the information, anyways. A breeder is likely to be selling a whole clutch, meaning a buyer would only need to track down a sibling to find out anything left out.
I list the genetics because we don’t have a ton of info retention in the hobby. I want my buyers to know as much about their animal as possible. An example, we could find out at some point that certain genes have a higher risk of developing certain health issues.
There’s also the argument that if you can’t stop people from breeding “pet only”, at least you can make them informed. For instance, if someone were selling a pet only corn snake where one of the hets is Stargazer. It’s not very prevalent anymore, but some people still test breed clutches, thus creating het/pos het animals. These are usually only given to other breeders to test lines or strictly pet only homes. Since Stargazer is recessive, you need two copies to have an affected offspring. You wouldn’t be looked upon very highly if you were found to be knowingly adding that gene back into the hobby. Thus having that genetic information may dissuade someone from breeding that specific animal.
I generally appreciate your advice, but I feel like this is an especially good one. As long as the seller isn’t deleting the listing after selling(which, again, I’m new, I don’t know if they can do this), I feel like this is perfect. I looove the ability to search the sold category, it makes everything so much more transparent
That’s actually really cool, and good to know! I’ll have to look forward to using that in the future.
This is really smart, but I’m sure it’s being replaced by genetic testing, right? I feel like it would be so much less hassle, money, time, and heartbreak if you just test the snakes genetics before breeding them.
Again, thank you for your thoughts! It really makes me feel a lot better knowing that y’all would avoid that person as well. I don’t have many people local to me that breed reptiles so it’s nice to hear from people who know what they are talking about!
