In need of heat suggestions for larger tanks

[hb24]

Hello all. I’ve got a couple of corn babies, well juveniles now, that I’m planning to upgrade to 120g enclosures. This is just the planning stage of the game, but I like to be prepared.

I’m assuming the heat source would depend on the enclosure type, so for the time being (unless someone here has a better suggestion), my plan is to get them into PVC enclosures. I have zero experience with this type of enclosure or this size tank, so all input is welcome and appreciated. I just want to make sure they’re living like kings (well, corns) and queens as they come of age, and it seems that these are the most common and widely available.

With that in mind, what heat sources do you suggest? My preference is under tank heating, but after a casual quick search, the largest UTH I could find was 8x18 inches. Is that large enough? It just doesn’t seem like it would be, but like I said, no experience here.

Thanks!

[kabre]

UTH isn’t a great fit for PVC generally, since PVC has insulating properties (part of what makes it work better for consistent temps than glass), but there are plenty of other options for PVC.

Screen top or a solid top? Either way, overhead heating is a possibility, you’ll just need bulb cages if you’re mounting to the inside rather than placing on top of screens.

Common overhead heating options include deep heat projectors (DHP), halogen bulbs and ceramic heat emitters (CHE) – I prefer a combo of halogen for day heat and DHP for night, but it depends on if you want a night drop or other lighting. (I like the halogen’s more yellowy lighting, but some folks prefer brighter, or like to include UVB lamps.) Don’t use red basking bulbs, they’re super outdated! Either way they’ll heat a 120 fine as long as your ambient temps aren’t super low.

Alternately if you want something similar-ish to under tank heating, radiant heat panels don’t emit any light and can be mounted to the side or top of the enclosure. They have a low profile and I’ve heard good things about their heating abilities.

You also probably want to double check that whatever enclosure you’re getting is pretty escape proof if your corns are on the small side! I’ve heard some gnarly stories about smaller snakes and sliding doors.

[cmsreptiles]

@kabre

Alternately if you want something similar-ish to under tank heating, radiant heat panels

Radiant heat panels work good for pvc enclosures as far as I’m aware. I use a large one for my Boa’s enclosure, its top mounted and has no trouble at all keeping her home at a good temp.

The only con I can say about them is make sure you can have a way to keep them plugged in lol. Idk if will be as much of an issue with your Corns since they are quite literally a fraction of the size of my Boa, but I always have to check on her heat panel to see if she’s unplugged it by wedging her body through the space of the cord and the ceiling of her enclosure.

[hb24]

Ahh, glad I’m an early planner. I’m at least a few months away from starting the process of acquiring everything, so these guys will probably be closer to 2 years old before they’re moved in. Hopefully that will give them time to gain some more growth so that the escape artists in them can’t get out.

I will very likely have to stack the enclosures so I’m guessing solid lids with bulbs and bulb cages if I do overhead heating. I’ve also heard that babies can get caught in the bulb cages and cook, so another good reason to wait until they get some size on them first. Please correct me if I’m not understanding this, but it sounds like the radiant heat panels would also be “overhead heating” unless you do a side mount. I guess what I’m getting at is under tank heating may not be a good fit for a PVC enclosure? Oh, and thanks for the heads up on the lighting options. I’ve got an amel and I bet she’d appreciate the halogen’s yellowy lighting better than the bright UVBs.

[hb24]

One of the biggest concerns I have is temperature control so I’m relieved to hear radiant heat panels work so well! My experience with glass has been frustrating and trying. Thanks for the heads up on the cord getting unplugged lol. I doubt the corns could push it around like that, but being that I’ve never had an adult, I won’t say it’s impossible. They’ve continued to surprise me with some of the antics they pull!

[t_h_wyman]

If you are using a PVC cage with a solid top and lights rigged inside, then often times they generate sufficient heat for corns (and many colubrids FWIW) I do not have any additional heat added in for my Rhamphiophis, Pseudaspis, Oligodon, Malpolon, alterna, or black milk because the lights pump out more than enough

[hb24]

When you say lights rigged inside, do you mean the halogen lights and deep heat projectors like @kabre mentioned?

What I’m getting from this (and thank you all so much for educating me!), is that it’s an either/or with lights versus radiant heat panels. So, here’s my follow up questions now that I’m getting a better understanding. If I opt to go with the lights/DHP route, how does a thermostat work with these? Would I need a thermostat for each light/lamp, meaning I would need to double the number of thermostats I have? I like the idea of having lights in the enclosures for better visuals, but it sounds like a lot more wiring would be needed.

Alternatively, if I went with the radiant heat panels, I suppose I could find lower wattage LEDs to put in for lights since LEDs don’t produce heat. Correct?

Lastly, pictures of the crew for tax because I forgot the first round!

[t_h_wyman]

@hb24

When you say lights rigged inside, do you mean the halogen lights and deep heat projectors like @kabre mentioned?

@hb24

I suppose I could find lower wattage LEDs to put in for lights since LEDs don’t produce heat. Correct?

I am actually talking about LED systems

I am posting this pic of my Candoia cage as an example

All my colubrid cages have these same LED light rigs and are all more than sufficiently warm without any added heat. The black milk cage on the bottom has them but you cannot see the lights in there, hence my pointing them out in the Candoia cage

[kabre]

Pic tax!! What handsome devils all!

So – yes, with internally-rigged basking lights you need a thermostat for each of them. I’ll try and remember snap a pic of my setup to show you what that means.

You don’t necessarily need both a DHP and a halogen; I have both because I want my BP to have a basking spot at night as well as in the day, since she’s very nocturnal. The halogen is on during the day, the DHP is on at night.

With a diurnal species you could probably get away with one basking light and then having your ambient temps be high enough that your night drop doesn’t get too dramatic. That’s what I plan on doing for the big enclosures I’m setting up for my boaedon capensis, also because they seem to actively enjoy their cooler sides and don’t seem to need it as hot in general. Basically YMMV.

I’m not as familiar with how to set up thermostats for radiant heat panels, as I’ve never used one, but the principle is the same.

Also that’s a great point from t_h_wyman – LEDs do put out heat! That surprised me too, but they can raise the ambient temps in your enclosure when they’re on.

Actually while we’re here – what brand LEDs do you use, @t_h_wyman? Those are fantastic setups and I’m looking at something like that for my housie enclosures.

[hb24]

@t_h_wyman holy wow man! Love your setups. Thank you for clarifying, I had absolutely no idea LEDs put out heat and I certainly wouldn’t have expected their output to be enough to satisfy heating needs. I’m echoing @kabre’s question about what brand you use. I hope I haven’t hit my limit on silly questions, but my next one is if the LEDs put out that much warmth, how do you keep your cool side cool while still keeping it lit up?

@kabre thanks! I think they’re amazing, but I know I’m a bit biased

It’s looking more like LEDs may be the best option for me. I guess my follow up question would be if I do go the LED route, what ambient temps are considered ok? Our house is set to 72 at night during the summer and 69 during the winter months. I’m thinking the summer months would be fine, but wondering if I’d need something additional for the winter months when it’s a bit colder?

Many, many thanks to you both for all the information you’ve provided!! My babies will certainly benefit from the education I’m getting right now!

[kabre]

Keep in mind if you’re using LEDs you still need to keep in mind temperature gradient availability so your snakes can thermoregulate – my instinct would be to still have a basking area serviced by a small halogen during the day.

I’m curious, how do you provide a basking spot, Wyman? I think I see a little light fixture in the middle of the top enclosure, or are basking spots provided by those raised cork bark/branch areas that get really close to the LEDs?

re: ambient temps, I’m not so versed in corns so I can’t say entirely. I know there are some corn experts here – @caryl comes to mind – who might be able to weigh in on ambients for corns.

[caron]

@kabre Caryl can absolutely give you expert advice on all aspects of corn keeping but as a long time keeper of corns I can assure that they are very hardy and can be kept in tubs in addition to tanks, pvc, etc. As long as they have a warm end and a cool end they are happy. They are forgiving if the husbandry is not spot on and can be kept humbly or lavishly, whatever the keeper desires. But that doesn’t mean that proper temps are not necessary.

[caryl]

Hi Heather! Your snakes look fantastic! They’re growing up wondrously lovely.

You’re getting advice from the best about PVC enclosures. I don’t currently have any of those. That’s part of the plan if we ever get moved (which is another topic).

As far as ambient temps for corns, Caron is spot-on; you don’t have to hit any specific target temp spot-on. I know you are dedicated to doing things right so that the animals can live healthy, happy lives, which is awesome. Not saying that’s wrong at all: it’s just right. I only mean that corns love across such a wide range, they’re naturally adapted to handle a wide variance. For corns, “ambient temps” is best thought of as the temp when the snake will be. Air temps in the middle of the enclosure don’t matter. Substrate temps do. So do temps on and under decor items of which they’ll make use. Time they’ll spend there matters, too. Two minutes traversing a cool branch won’t really matter. What matters is that they have various areas around their home where they can access a range of temps. They’ll do this by being physically in contact with something, so those are the temps that matter. Hope that makes sense.

[t_h_wyman]

@kabre

what brand LEDs do you use

@hb24

I’m echoing kabre’s question about what brand you use

Those are Arcadia JungleDawn units but I am sure there are others out there that would accomplish the same
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@hb24

I hope I haven’t hit my limit on silly questions

When you are seeking answers as to how to do best by your animals, there are no silly questions and no quota
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@hb24

if the LEDs put out that much warmth, how do you keep your cool side cool while still keeping it lit up?

@kabre

I’m curious, how do you provide a basking spot, Wyman?

With many of my colubrids, I position of the LED bar off-centre. I will try and grab a pic of the black milk cage when I break for lunch. But with some of the others I just do not worry about it overly much. There is still a gradient from the centre of the cage floor out to the front and back and also to the sides. And with all the decor I have in the cages as well it, creates areas that are sheltered and exposed so there are plenty of temp differentials
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@kabre

I think I see a little light fixture in the middle of the top enclosure, or are basking spots provided by those raised cork bark/branch areas that get really close to the LEDs?

So… I used the shot from the Candoia cage just to illustrate the LEDs because it was quickly available to me since I had previously posted it on the boards. The Candoia, being boas, have some different requirements and that is why there is that triple socket unit you can make out there. The left and right sockets are screw-in LED units that are UV bulbs (VivTech) and then there is a DHE in the centre of the unit to throw heat onto those cork slabs

I do have an additional unit in most of my colubrid cages as well for UV and a second LED bulb that helps me simulate sunrise/sunset. Again, when/if I can get down to the black milk cage during a break I will get clearer pics of that
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@hb24

but wondering if I’d need something additional for the winter months when it’s a bit colder?

Being temperate climate animals, corns are not terribly bothered by cooler temps in winter. It is however, important that you are monitoring their behaviour during cooler times. If the lights are coming on during the day they will still pump out a fair bit of heat so you only have a drop at night which is not going to impact them terribly much. They may go off feed and, if they do, then it is best to let them stay off feed for a bit. I also advocate smaller meals in winter even if they are still feeding because the temp drop at night can slow digestion and too large of a meal can then create problems

[hb24]

@caryl

Hi Heather! Your snakes look fantastic! They’re growing up wondrously lovely.

Hi Caryl! Thank you - they’re getting so big!

@caryl

Substrate temps do. So do temps on and under decor items of which they’ll make use. Time they’ll spend there matters, too. Two minutes traversing a cool branch won’t really matter. What matters is that they have various areas around their home where they can access a range of temps. They’ll do this by being physically in contact with something, so those are the temps that matter. Hope that makes sense.

This makes total sense, and I think it’s why my original preference was under tank heating. As you taught me (almost a year ago - where does the time go???), substrate temps are important and currently what I’m trying to figure out. I love the idea of using LED lighting as I’ll have better views, but I’m curious if it’s enough to keep the substrate temps where they need to be. I’ll wait for the words of wisdom from @t_h_wyman and go from there.

Maybe in a year or so once I’ve got my crew set up and you’ve (hopefully) moved and started your PVC adventures, we can compare notes! I have been researching setups for corns in general and have found surprisingly little that wasn’t either for beginners or just for bioactive. I feel like as popular as corn snakes are, there should be some better info out there for those of us stuck somewhere between beginner and bioactives lol.

Bonus pictures for more tax and because I rarely get to show them off outside of this community!

[t_h_wyman]

@hb24

I’ll wait for the words of wisdom from t_h_wyman and go from there

See my above

And also, please do remember that just because my way works for me I cannot guarantee it will work for everyone. The best advice you will ever get from anyone is to learn your animals - become a student of the serpent. They will tell you what does and does not work for them. That is how you know you got it right

[hb24]

Looks like we were posting at the same time!

@t_h_wyman

And also, please do remember that just because my way works for me I cannot guarantee it will work for everyone. The best advice you will ever get from anyone is to learn your animals - become a student of the serpent. They will tell you what does and does not work for them. That is how you know you got it right

Good advice to keep in mind. I feel like I’m constantly learning about my guys, and I doubt that will change much in the future. But it’s really nice to be able to bounce ideas off the community and have some sort of idea of how to move forward!

[hb24]

@t_h_wyman

@hb24

I hope I haven’t hit my limit on silly questions

When you are seeking answers as to how to do best by your animals, there are no silly questions and no quota

Thank you - it truly is for their benefit! I’m continually blown away by the compassionate support of this community

@t_h_wyman

Those are Arcadia JungleDawn units but I am sure there are others out there that would accomplish the same

With many of my colubrids, I position of the LED bar off-centre. I will try and grab a pic of the black milk cage when I break for lunch. But with some of the others I just do not worry about it overly much. There is still a gradient from the centre of the cage floor out to the front and back and also to the sides. And with all the decor I have in the cages as well it, creates areas that are sheltered and exposed so there are plenty of temp differentials

Got it, thank you for the brand. Gives me something to start with. If I’m understanding you correctly, the off-centre lighting allows most of the enclosure to receive the “light” benefit while creating plenty of temp ranges throughout so they can thermoregulate on their own. I’m looking forward to having more room to work with in the larger enclosures. There’s only so much you can stuff in the smaller grow-up enclosures. Hadn’t given much thought to that aiding in creating temp differentials, but I’m looking forward to all the possibilities! Who doesn’t love shopping for decor?? (Rhetorical, because of course we all do!)

@t_h_wyman

@hb24

but wondering if I’d need something additional for the winter months when it’s a bit colder?

Being temperate climate animals, corns are not terribly bothered by cooler temps in winter. It is however, important that you are monitoring their behaviour during cooler times. If the lights are coming on during the day they will still pump out a fair bit of heat so you only have a drop at night which is not going to impact them terribly much. They may go off feed and, if they do, then it is best to let them stay off feed for a bit. I also advocate smaller meals in winter even if they are still feeding because the temp drop at night can slow digestion and too large of a meal can then create problems

Good advice! Ironically, I’m ordering mice today and while I don’t need to prep for winter just yet, I’ll be keeping this in mind when I order closer to that time. I’ve been in “they’re growing” mode so I hadn’t considered keeping some smaller meal options on hand just in case. I’ve also been lucky enough that one of guys is smaller than the others, so I’ve had options on hand, but haven’t needed them. I’ll be making this adjustment in my ordering going forward.

I’m glad to know additional heating may not be necessary, but I’ll certainly be monitoring their enclosures closely when we finally get upgraded. Not that it may matter down the road, but should I decide they need something additional, would a DHP be a good solution? I’ve also heard of ceramic heat emitters, but I have no idea what the difference in them is.

Thanks again!

[t_h_wyman]

@hb24

If I’m understanding you correctly, the off-centre lighting allows most of the enclosure to receive the “light” benefit while creating plenty of temp ranges throughout so they can thermoregulate on their own

Yep, you have the right of it

Pics to help the visualization

This is the black milk cage. As you can see, the light bar is shifted to the right side leaving an area on the left that is not directly under the bar and thus not receiving much of the heat generated by the bar (and if you have sharp eyes, you can see my girl in there)

This is the dual socket in the black milk cage. The bulb is just a 40w equivalent LED, the mini-flood is the VivTech UV bulb. The LED bulb fires on at sunrise and then the full LED bar turns on an hour later and then they turn off in the reverse order at the end of the day. Just my little hack for making “sunrise” and “sunset” before dimmer units were available

This is a totally different cage set up for a heat-loving Egyptian locality Malpolon insignitus. As you can se, the bar is centred rather than offset

And to give you an idea of just how much heat these can pump out… The first spot is directly beneath the bar (where the animal had been basking until I came in, she is flighty) and the second is the back corner. This is a 86cm bar in a 100cm cage and I went with that size because I knew it would generate a lot of heat in the space to meet this snake’s need. For something not as heat-loving,I would use a smaller bar to allow a larger gradient and a lower overall temp

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@hb24

Who doesn’t love shopping for decor?? (Rhetorical, because of course we all do!)

Funny as it may sound, I hate building cages. I have a very specific picture in my head for how I want them to look and if I cannot get the real thing to match my mental image I have a low-grade anxiety attack. It will take me literal months to get a cage built
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@hb24

I’m glad to know additional heating may not be necessary

This is not something I advocate for, but my first “real” snake (i.e., not one caught in the yard and kept for a few weeks) was a corn that I raised from a hatchling to an adult in a 55g glass fish tank with nothing but the weak light tubes that were in the hoods that came with the tank. No extra heat, just whatever the house I lived in at the time was at. And he made it to 23 years old. Corns are really robust
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@hb24

should I decide they need something additional, would a DHP be a good solution? I’ve also heard of ceramic heat emitters, but I have no idea what the difference in them is

For my species, I prefer either DHE or, ridiculous as it may sound, a standard incandescent bulb. DHEs throw IR which is good for making a localized spot of penetrating heat. Incandescent bulbs give off a lot of waste heat which can be absorbed by the decor and given back off as IR and contact heat in the same manner as the light bars, just in a bit more concentrated area. Again, each has their time and place

I avoid ceramic emitters, I have seen and heard too many horror stories with them

And I have no experience with RHPs but I know a lot of people swear by them

[hb24]

Thank you so much for all the visuals and the specifics!! I’m getting a much better understanding of everything!

@t_h_wyman

(and if you have sharp eyes, you can see my girl in there)

It was a bit like “Where’s Waldo” but I found her!

@t_h_wyman

Funny as it may sound, I hate building cages. I have a very specific picture in my head for how I want them to look and if I cannot get the real thing to match my mental image I have a low-grade anxiety attack. It will take me literal months to get a cage built

The type A personality in me understands this anxiety. I think if I was more artistically inclined, this is something that would be anxiety inducing for me as well. Thankfully and unfortunately, this is not the case, so whatever I end up with is what it is, lol. FWIW, the pictures of your enclosures are beautiful!

What I do have anxiety about is making permanent changes to the enclosure that I can’t go back and fix or change later. I think that’s why I’m trying to hammer down on the specifics ahead of time. But it seems like whatever option I choose, I’ll have to make some sort of permanent adjustment to the enclosure, so good thing I’ve got time to swallow that.

@t_h_wyman

And to give you an idea of just how much heat these can pump out… The first spot is directly beneath the bar (where the animal had been basking until I came in, she is flighty) and the second is the back corner. This is a 86cm bar in a 100cm cage and I went with that size because I knew it would generate a lot of heat in the space to meet this snake’s need. For something not as heat-loving,I would use a smaller bar to allow a larger gradient and a lower overall temp

That is more than sufficient heat for corn snakes - thanks for the temp displays! I’m leaning more and more towards this option. I know this is more of a guestimation type question, but for colubrids would you suggest a bar about half the size of the enclosure? Like for a 4x2x2, a LED bar about 2ft (60cm) should work nicely placed off-centre? Since corns aren’t a heat loving species, I’d guess this would give enough heat to the warm side while not overheating the whole enclosure.

@t_h_wyman

For my species, I prefer either DHE or, ridiculous as it may sound, a standard incandescent bulb. DHEs throw IR which is good for making a localized spot of penetrating heat. Incandescent bulbs give off a lot of waste heat which can be absorbed by the decor and given back off as IR and contact heat in the same manner as the light bars, just in a bit more concentrated area. Again, each has their time and place

I avoid ceramic emitters, I have seen and heard too many horror stories with them

And I have no experience with RHPs but I know a lot of people swear by them

Ahh, thanks for explaining the difference in how the heat is put out. I’ll have to put a pin in this and do a bit more research if it ends up being necessary. And thanks for the heads up on the ceramic emitter - won’t waste my time researching those if you’ve heard horror stories!

@t_h_wyman

And he made it to 23 years old. Corns are really robust

Love it! I’m hoping my babies live long, happy lives with me as well.