Im here to confuse things. 1 snake is het clown, pos het pied, the other is het pied, pos het clown. 1 obviously is black pastel as well, but if i said which one had black pastel it would give away the game 
Ive posted these before, so some of you may have the answer already haha.
P.S. i know the first one is skinny, she went on a long hunger strike when she came in, but is feeding good now, so shes putting the weight back on 
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Well, everyone posting pics, and all the people arguing for/against can you find the markers for name your favorite recessive here are skipping three important points.
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If you can see a marker, it’s not technically recessive. By definition. Even though, for the purposes of hobby breeding, where the fully expressed form is the most often desired result, we refer to the trait as recessive. Sometimes, though, we like the morphs with a partial expression. We’re using the words incorrectly, we must drive Travis and Hillary nuts.


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In the single gene form, these so called “recessives” have to battle to express against the other genes, and we all know that higher expression lines are a thing for almost any gene, so why not for the “recessives”? For some of these combos, it’s easy to spot the markers, for others, the “stronger” gene overwhelms the markers, or maybe the copy of the “recessive gene” is just a weaker “line”. Thus you get proven het pieds or het clowns with no marker. It’s there, just overwritten. So, breeders with alot of experience or a good eye can see it when everyone else can’t. Sometimes. Sometimes, it’s just completely overwhelmed. Heck, I can’t see regular dominant genes in a super pastel spider, much less het clown. I’ve seen allegedly visual clowns with so much junk in them, the headstamp was your only clue to the clown.
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And last, if it wasn’t bad enough, some of the “pattern recessives” affect color, and, worse, some of the “color recessives” affect pattern. Go look at het lav albino normals, some of them, you would swear were trick or “omg, i found a new gene!” No, you didn’t, just het lav doing its thing. 
Go look at some of the really cool snakes on MM, alot of the ones that just seem to be “special” have a het in there, sometimes not even the one you think.
FWIW I think pretty much all the pattern changing genes have markers, and thus aren’t really recessive. Just some are easier to see or we just have more practice. And in answer to naysayers…
Clown/Cryptic
Puzzle
Paint
The entire effing “we don’t know what else it might be, but it all has the same het effect and the supers are all cool” granite effing complex, they’re all effing granite people, stop changing the names.
I need a hot chocolate, i think i just raged myself…


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Whew, after a good night’s sleep. Thank you, hot chocolate (no coffee after noon anymore, darn blood pressure, sucks getting old), I realized i left off two more things.
First, I think some of the marker confusion is because the markers can be different with different dominant genes. Het pied normal looks different from het pied leo, but there are markers for both morphs. So you need to consider how the dominant gene changes the marker. Looking at you, yellowbelly.
Second, I really hope the DNA project is going to help clean up some of the mess, and that the community will accept that. It may be rough, but I think it will be good in the long run to be able to say for certain if a particular named gene is truly a separate gene or just a different line of another. Might hurt some feelings, and wallets, but the community can then just shift to keeping known lines separate. Not going deeper here, belongs on a different thread, just saying.
It’ll be interesting if the DNA test ever gets accurate, fast and cheap enough. People might start requesting a copy as part of the sale…
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Poss het clown … hoping proves out.
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Yeah, see this right here. Any potential markers are just wiped. Maybe the headstamp depending on what else is in there.
Hopefully not to divert into pied too much in a clown discussion but I bought 3 possible het pied males from Peter Kahl back before the markers were publicly discussed and he sent me at least one male with the markers. I’ve proven many 25% chance het pieds (i.e. possible possible hets) over the years picked based on pied tracks. Of course there was no reason for him to hold extra het males.
I’ve also proven possible het clown and hypo I held back based on them looking het to me but I’m much less confident in my ability to pick those hets out.
I’m going to try to do the same with monsoon, tri-stripe, and maybe ultramel but would love to see genetic testing to be sure.
Oh, and I’m currently raising up 10 possible het clown girls. I have hunches as to which I think are most likely to prove but not strong enough to save me a lot of work and sell the others off as not het clowns.
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Monsoon is absolutely not recessive. The “markers” for hets are soooo obvious it should’ve never been considered recessive in the first place. I have heard of tri-stripe having markers but it’s apparently just a certain line? I’m not sure, I haven’t looked too much into that one
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I have good confidence in my possible het monsoon but being years off proving him I’m not in a position to say much. I do wonder if some hets might be more subtle, especially in some combos.
I’m also just starting with one het tri-stripe male but I picked the most tri-stripe looking one available. His alien eyes have a distinct horizontal striping and so did some but not all of his 100% het siblings.
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I have a girl I’m trying to prove this year that i suspect is het clown based on markers. We’ll see. She’s Spotnose and gasp Yellowbelly. But what I think are the markers are pretty strong, and I figure nowdays you’ve got a 50/50 shot on almost any random spot being het clown with as many people have been mixing them.
But worst case, I’ll have some nice known hets.
Pairing pewter Clown to spot yb suspect het
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Oh yeah they vary a lot. I’m friends with someone who works with them heavily (accidentally got a non-labeled het from dave green himself) and he’s hatched some hets that were very subtle
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Everyone I trust that I have spoken with has said Monsoon is inc-dom. And given my small sample size working with Tri, I am inclined to believe it is subtle inc-dom as well
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