Keeping Ball Pythons as pets... Are we right?

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I just wanted to point out with the discussion on importation/releasing captive-bred pythons.

Importation serves the purpose of introducing new genes to avoid a lot of genetic drift and bottle-necking in the captive populations. In theory, it will decrease the number of deformities seen in hatchlings. I have read somewhere on this forum that breeding completely unrelated cinnamon ball pythons together seems to greatly reduce the number of kinked spines. Eventually all of the animals of a certain color/morph/line (as that’s the point of line breeding) will have similar genetics and it is beneficial to the population as a whole to have “wild-type” genetics added back in.

Along with that thought, the majority, if not all, of our beloved morphs originated from wild-caught imports. That means that some of these combinations do exist in the wild. Albinos exist in almost every species of animal and enough of them survive to adulthood to reproduce. I’m not saying I would elect my bananas or my leucistics to be released, but as a whole, I think we all produce enough normal or classic ball pythons, that those could be safely released.

I also agree with @shugr231 that the ball python is not truly domesticated. I have little to no doubt that enough of them could survive in their natural habitat. Their baser instincts have not been bred out of them.

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Although regarding the video, I wish they’d made more of an effort to take into account that the conditions and time spent at an expo is only a fraction of the animal’s life. Or to examine the conditions of an animal in a pet home. I have seen more and more that people looking into getting a ball python as a pet are wanting to keep them in a bioactive enclosure. While these are typically vivs, inside them is as close to a “natural” environment as anyone can provide for them.

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Back to the video. The elephant in the room here is that as keepers of captive bred animals we have had a hand in someway to the capture of wild animals, we also have confirmation biases because of what we hold dear to our hearts in the same way the makers of this video do, the difference is the large majority of the reptile keepers community are constantly learning from science, experience with our animals and the facts of our passion where as the vast majority of PETA members are blinded by beliefs and purposefully create misinformation to perpetuate their cause.

As an environmentalist I share some of peta’s underlying principles but they have such radical beliefs they have become fundamentalists, using any means necessary to fuel their cause, something I cant ever get behind as someone who uses scientific evidence and experience based knowledge which allows my opinion to change based on fact and not belief.

Which leads nicely toward the cutting off of snakes heads for ceremonial medicine… We only need to look at traditional chinese medicine which is a faith based folk medicine to see the horror of allowing people to go unchallenged in their beliefs for the sake of not upsetting the believer. Educational institutions are the only way we can get them to change their beliefs about using rhino horn or python heads.

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The poster literally says they “ posted this video because of its controversial and BS content.”

What the what?!

Why throw a match on an incendiary topic just to watch it burn?

Do we really need another issue to argue about right now?

Debate is great; however inciting a discussion based on self-confessed BS is an excercise in time-wasting near trollish behavior.

And come on? Ball pythons?! The cats of the reptile world? that has been bred so successfuly into so many lovely morphs?

And the comments about some people not needing a bp. lots of people are unqualified for any pet — I hardly see that as a reason to condemn the ownership of that animal.

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I see no issue with posting controversial subjects. This isn’t collecting train sets, these are living animals that need discussion.

Here is probably the most controversial subject in the hobby … Yeah let’s do this: here’s the Super Spider … We’re adults, we can do this properly.

So because it is a emotional topic we should just brush it under the carpet?

A lot of the way the video is displayed is the exact same way certain organisations behave, how are we going to form a organised and clear argument against them if we have never discussed the subject.

When would be a preferred time to discuss this? A global pandemic has no effect on this subject.

If you find it time wasting, you are free to ignore this thread and have a look around others, but I’m sure as you do you will find I am far from a troll.

Welcome to the forum :blush:

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A little interruption as some will notice a few posts were removed by the staff and others were edited, our mission here is to elevate the discussion and this is definitely not accomplished by name calling, criticizing, making fun of and/or picking on someone’s attributes.

So if this is how one thinks he/she must preface their side of the argument I will encourage them to take a good look in the mirror first.

Debate intelligently and respectfully whether or not the other side you are debating is present.

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Enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend.

Now back to your regular programming.

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I have no argument. I saw absolutely nothing wrong with this video. Ball Pythons deserve to live short lives in the wild and die a natural death, like being chopped in half for voodoo or eaten by a small cat or a monkey alive, slowly. Keeping snakes in clean comfy cages and feeding them sufficiently so they live long lives is abuse, full stop.

I’m obviously kidding. This was a complete waste of 24 minutes. Took real patience to get through.

I made sure to contact the musician who’s music was used to let them know their creative content was being repurposed for bullshit propaganda. Not sure how the comments became an argument when we can all agree.

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No access to food at an expo? So cruel. Lol. Don’t let these people know about shipping snakes through FedEx or they’ll lose their minds

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That depends.

With the exception of a new morph popping up, I do not really see the need for WC ball pythons.

But tell me, how may captive bred mainland phase Oligodon purpurescens have you seen available in the industry? I will save you the effort of looking, the answer is: ZERO. So, if I would like to work with this species and establish it in the hobby, how would you suggest I go about that?

There are two sides to the coin and you cannot paint with a broad brush that what applies to one species must apply to all.

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For species already established in captivity, absolutely not. However, for some species, taking a reasonable number to establish a safe and legal pet trade would reduce the demand for WC specimens of that species. Hopefully then, future specimens would be CB and there would be no need to take animals from the wild any more.

(Example: Crested gecko, which were thought to be extinct until they were re-discovered in 1994 and introduced to the pet trade, where they thrived).

Obviously we should always be very careful capturing animals from the wild for the pet trade. Must be done responsibly with regards to wild population etc… etc…

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And just to add to your point, how are we to go about establishing a breeding group of a endangered species? Getting some from the wild that’s how. To save a species you will need to take some from the wild and establish a captive breeding group, and just like what @t_h_wyman said, you cannot paint with a broad brush to meet both sides of the debate. Great discussion all around though.

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I am going to go against the grain a bit here and say yes, to some degree, we still need to pull specimens from the wild. We need, to some degree, a periodic injection of fresh genetics to maintain as much genetic diversity amongst our captive bred populations as possible.

The caveat to that is I am making an assumption that we are creating bottlenecks at various points in order to isolate genes for specific phenotypic expression. What impact is that having on the overall genetic diversity of captive bred ball pythons? I have no way of knowing for sure, and is something for our Dr. Moraeu crowd over in another thread who are actually geneticists and seem to have the access and ability to test such things.

We could be several decades away from any real issues here if we cut off all wild caught ball pythons. We know virtually nothing about the genetic diversity of our domestic bred ball pythons let alone natural population genetic diversity or sizes.

The fact is we are artificially determining fitness based on a very limited number of traits, we have no idea what other traits are being perpetuated or lost entirely in the captive bred populations.

When people ask about releasing back into the wild or bringing in new imports the honest answer is we really don’t have the data to support either side.

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Because we’re still constantly outcrossing with normals and not just breeding within morphs, I actually don’t worry too much about creating bottlenecks. While it seems there is some inbreeding in the initial identification and expansion when a new morph is discovered, it’s a relatively sort amount of time before it starts getting crossed out with literally ever other morph we have, including normals. There’s enough outcrossing that I don’t worry about consanguinity the way I would if it were dog breeds or any other type of selective breeding.

Personally I don’t really think we need to be importing wild caught ball pythons anymore, we have plenty of genetic diversity within the captive ball python population that is enough to sustain the species just fine without worries of shrinking the gene pool too much.

This was my only point @t_h_wyman . We did our job, why shoud we do more?
I think saving species from Extinction with this method, is another discussion.

And now we just have a little bit language barrier, cause I don’t get this maybe right…
Do you mean to take animal from wild and make it as a pet for hobby, or in bigger scale industry (breed it to a pet markets…)?

Ah, but your statement was worded “broad brush” style: do we really need snakes, lizards, birds, from nature anymore? No clarification that you were speaking only for those that are well established versus those that are not

Either/or. Frankly, I do not see kukri becoming the next ball pythons, but it is possible a small sub-set of the hobby would like to get in to them. As such, I would prefer to be able to offer a stable CBB population. But I had to get WC imports to be able to do that. I could say the same for my Rhamphiophis.

But maybe there is another species out there that could become super popular and grow to be as large balls/corns/leopard geckos/crested geckos… You still need to bring in some base-level of animals from the wild to establish a stable CBB collection.

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You are right, maybe I should’ve said it more accurate. Even if I breed snakes, I still want believe that our actions matters. I am not sure if I really know what you mean by " bring some base-level animals" and If that species(I am not familiar with the most of snake species) thrives on its own in nature, why would you want to bring them in enclosure? If there is anything else, that it helps those animals, I don’t think it is right.

Maybe I am trying to say that we have enough animals in captivity, so that every species that can live on its own, we should let them be…

And yes I have a little naive opinion about worlds wild life, because I isn’t so big part in Finland. But if I see here wildsnakes, lizards and so on…my first thought is to watch from the distance.

Hopefully got my point on now :relieved:

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To establish a captive population of any animal, it requires that you bring in a certain minimum number of animals to start a breeding program. This would be the ‘base’ of the captive-bred population
.
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I do not know that it is naive so much as it is just your view based on your experience in your area of the world. Knowledge and information can always be gained and, based on your posts/conversations here on the forum, you have always struck me as an individual that is willing to learn and open to new, possibly unfamiliar, ideas. A much longer, involved conversation on the matter might cause you to view things differently. Or it may not. So long as neither of us if trying to force the other to accept their view I am sure we can all get along :slightly_smiling_face:

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That is nice thing to say :relieved: I really have lots of opinions, but also willing to change them if I get reasonable argument for it :joy::heart:

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These are the people trying to take our pets away, and convince legislators to do so. I think it’s better to acknowledge their existence and arguments than to wait until they become more of a problem.

Comments are closed on their video so let us discuss it here in our community.

To save you click here is their Q & A page about snakes.

Did you know that snakes like ball pythons are wild animals? Test your snake knowledge with our Q&A.
All snakes, including ball pythons, are wild animals and not domesticated. The process of domestication occurs over thousands of years.
In the wild, ball python snakes live in the grasslands and savannas of East and West Africa, often hiding in burrows during the day and trees at night. These long animals need space to stretch out, bathe fully submerged, and roam in search of food.

This begs the question: should ball pythons ever be kept as companion animals? Read this Q&A before you answer…

Test your snake knowledge Q: My friend has a snake in their house. Doesn’t that mean the snake is a domesticated animal like my cat and dog?
A: No, all snakes, including ball pythons, are wild animals and not domesticated. The process of domestication occurs over thousands of years. Animals like cats, dogs, and horses have been selectively bred for specific traits that appear over many generations. It is believed that dogs may have been domesticated as long as 27,000 to 40,000 years ago, and estimates of cat domestication are between 3,600 and 9,500 years ago. Because they’re domesticated, cats and dogs thrive in loving human homes while wild animals cannot.

Some of the snakes sold into the wildlife trade come directly from the wild, while others are bred in captivity in cruel large-scale breeding operations, also known as mills. But even mills must continually incorporate snakes caught in the wild into their populations in order to maintain genetic diversity.

In a human home, there is no way to replicate the space and freedom ball pythons have in their natural environment. As a result, snakes suffer. Often kept in small tanks, snakes cannot regulate their own body temperature, eat a rich and varied diet that they choose, explore, or sometimes even fully stretch their own bodies as they would in the wild.

Q: What is wrong with trying to domesticate snakes?
A: The domestication of an animal is a process that takes many generations and occurs over many thousands or tens of thousands of years. This process involves selectively breeding the animals for certain genes. The breeding of snakes is already dangerous because breeders have a financial incentive to engage in inbreeding in order to increase their “stock.” Breeders also selectively breed to produce certain physical attributes, such as scale patterns or colors. Selective breeding can change the natural size of an animal, which can have multiple negative impacts on the animal’s physical and mental health. Buyers increasingly want genetically-altered versions or designer “morphs” that bear little resemblance to their relatives who live in the wild.

Q: But my snake was bred in captivity. Doesn’t that make them a domesticated animal?
A: No, a wild animal who is bred in captivity does not stop being a wild animal. A wild animal’s needs do not change simply because they were born outside of their natural, wild environment. These instincts do not disappear when wild animals are kept in a house or apartment or any type of enclosure. Again, not only is domestication a process that takes thousands or tens of thousands of years, for many species, domestication is simply not possible, such as with elephants.

Q: My snake seems really happy when I talk to them, and I love them. Why do you think my snake is suffering?
A: Wild animals kept in captivity all experience some degree of suffering because they don’t experience the freedom they would in the wild. However, accredited sanctuaries and rescue groups work hard to ensure captive wild animals in their care—animals who cannot be returned to the wild—live meaningful, fulfilling lives. Wild animals in captivity experience a range of care, and if you already possess a snake (or are interested in adopting one from a shelter or rescue), then you can educate yourself about their needs to provide the best life possible in captivity while also working to create a future where no wild animals are kept as pets. For example, it is difficult to recognize the signs of illness in snakes. Finding a veterinarian with experience and training in snake care is an important step.

As a result of the stress of captivity, some scientists estimate that 75 percent of captive snakes die within one year.*

Q: I am confused. Is it better to buy a snake bred in captivity or a snake born in the wild?
A: Neither! Snakes, like all animals, are not products and should never be purchased. When wild-caught, snakes usually experience stressful physical handling and injuries during capture. During transportation, snakes experience further stress and high mortality rates. In mills, snakes are kept in small, dirty containers packed with dozens of other animals. They are rarely provided veterinary care and often don’t receive nutritious food or clean water. Mortality is usually very high because dead animals are just seen as the cost of doing business.

Q: What is the best thing I can do to protect these animals?
A: The first thing you can do is sign our wildlife pledge to never purchase a wild animal. If you’re passionate about caring for wild animals, consider working with an accredited sanctuary or shelter to adopt. Many shelters struggle to find appropriate homes for relinquished wild animals who cannot be returned to the wild. You can also sign up to volunteer with us to make an even greater impact for these animals. After that, consider working with your local legislators to pass a law banning the retail sale of wild animals. We have a new toolkit that breaks down the steps.

And you can always be an advocate for wild animals by telling your family, friends, and coworkers that wild animals should stay in the wild.