9 posts were split to a new topic: Switching snakes from live
Not necessary. Like @saleengrinch said, if you breed your own feeders you get a bunch of pinkies every now and then and they come in numbers like 10 at times or so. So if you have a big clutch with 10 hatchlings and 5 - 6 feeder females pregnant 4 - 5 days apart, you get new pinkies as it goes. Add a few more females and you can easily cover adult snakes as well. In such a condition, why to bother prekilling or freezing and then thawing 3g pinkies every 3 days if you can just put them in front of babies just like that? They don’t have teeth to bite yet so there’s not a problem with safety. I breed my own mice as well (so far got only 2 snakes under half a kilo so it’s just fine) and i’m planning to upgrade to african rats but it works the same, basicaly. Plus, as long as hatchlings are sold with info they feed life i don’t see an issue with that. No one is pushing anybody to buy them, it’s personal and informed choice to take that snake. Or not.
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I started out with roughly 14 ball pythons, all under 200 grams, feeding frozen/thawed. How many reliably ate over the course of the spring? 3. I had a couple of snakes dropping weight. I made the switch to live and all but 1 ate, and once I assist fed, she began eating and gaining weight. Now I feed my collection of 18 all live. I have 2 or 3 that will skip a week here or there, and 1 that fasted most of the winter but just took an ASF. Live isn’t for everyone, but for me, I want these snakes to grow and maintain weight. So I bit the bullet and began breeding my own rats. I do not delight in the taking of life, (I’m vegetarian actually) but whether fed live or f/t, rat’s gonna die. It was an easy choice for me, but I can respect your view and choice to do differently. Just try to ask as many questions as you need, and if you don’t get answers, perhaps give your business to someone that 1. effectively communicates and 2. has established f/t feeders. Best of luck in the future!
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A little reminder the original topic which is about PREY TYPE impact on SALES and not how or if an animal can get switched.
Therefore the thread has now been split.
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It’s a dead topic then, seems no one has experienced difficulty selling animals because they were fed live.
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If you arent willing to sacrfice the occasional live prey item then maybe you shouldnt own a predator. Not every snake will take frozen, and some of us cant afford to buy frozen at 5 to 30 bucks or more a pop, depending on prey item type, size, and where its purchased, for our LARGE snakes. Not to mention when breeding your own mice, rats, rabbits, etc is much cheaper, 10 to 20 live prey items every couple weeks or so like clock work for practically FREE just makes more sense.
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5 or 10 bucks?! My small rats are $1.75 I’m glad mediums are as big as I’ll have to go!
But you’re right ik if your collection grows you hit that point where it’s pretty much unavoidable. Not looking forward to weekly rat cleanings lol 
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Here is a link to a place you can order rodents for cheap. https://www.americanrodent.com/index.php
I only live 20 minutes from these guys so I can just pick some up whenever I need em.
Same ARS Rocks 
one trip every couple months over lunch break. Not as cost effective if you were buying small quantities and paying the extra shipping but I’m so glad we are so close to them
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I feel that people who are absolutely, 100% opposed to feeding live prey, should not plan on breeding snakes. You might be able to get away with feeding F/T 100% of the time with a non-breeding collection of a handful of animals, but that is not going to work once you have entire clutches of babies to feed. It’s an unrealistic expectation and it’s frankly irresponsible.
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This is 
logic. People can own dogs and cats with the convenience that comes with feeding them but involve a snake and someone loses their mind. It’s silly. It fits right along with “If you aren’t willing to kill a cow with your teeth you shouldn’t be allowed to order beef” or other silliness. It’s just bad.
This is good logic. 
This is true. Although I feed FT exclusively, my hatchlings get live until they take FT which has happened as early as their second feeding and usually by their third.
Very true.
I will not buy an older snake who is on live food since I’ve had more trouble with them than new babies. As silly as it seems I don’t have the time to work with a snake that won’t just take their f/t meal right then and there. Course I know when it comes to breeding its gonna be a different story, I’ll have to make time for the hatchlings, but for right now I need snakes that will just eat for me.
As for someone else’s comment on not being able to breed unless you have live prey ready to go, gotta call bunk on that. I have two breeders I know of, one of them a good friend of mine, who feed f/t either right away or within one or two feedings. And my good friend had 8 clutches this year (not a lot by some standards but still) using only f/t to feed.
I plan on feeding only f/t to my own eventual clutches. If I can’t handle the cost then I simply won’t breed as seriously as some. There is no reason why a snake HAS to get live other than convenience of the breeder. Heck even pre killed could be done in that case. I can understand a baby needing a bit of help understanding what food is, but then to continue is again… Convenience. Which is fine.
Just know that for some purchasers being on f/t ahead of time does change if they want to buy or not.
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When a new keeper is purchasing a new snake it is completely understandable for them to expect it to be on f/t. Most sellers will even agree to switch it for you if you wait. There’s also whole thread on the topic to help you.
The only time I’ve had a problem with a newly acquired/rescued ball python is when they are mousers.
Experienced keepers shouldn’t be afraid to purchase animals on live. They’re usually trivial to switch, even as an adult, and you’ll be ahead of the game by several weeks (most sellers fast animals up to a month before shipping to avoid poo-bag on delivery). Inexperienced keepers a week into having a new animal may fret that it won’t eat but really by the time you’re feeding it… it should already be a month into a fast and ready to chomp on anything resembling food. Over-worry, expectations that ball pythons feed like other animals (ie: daily), odd husbandry, and general inexperienced can even lead to someone accidentally reverting an animal to live feed.
It may be. It probably isn’t. When they’re hatchlings it is nerve wracking to have a non-eater. If they eat when live hits the floor then that’s less worry. Hatchlings are at a particularly vulnerable stage in development (obviously) so whatever breeders can do… they will. After 100 grams or so you’re pretty much in the clear and can risk a missed week (or two… or three). Breeders love the animals as much as keepers/potential purchasers do and they’ll do whatever they believe it takes.
With all that said, if given the option to purchase an animal already on f/t versus an equivalent one that is listed as on live I would also probably opt for f/t already.
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I am sorry but this is equally logic.
First, dogs and cats have been domesticated for millennia and, through that domestication process, we have altered their feeding behaviour. Snakes are not domesticated. Do you honestly believe that if you were to take 100 Canids or Felids straight out of the wild and offer them only kibble you would get a 100% conversion?
Second, Canids are not obligate active ambush predators, they are omnivores and opportunists. Felids are also opportunists. So converting them to an alternate food source is/was less of a challenge.
Third, you discount biological imperative. Snakes have entirely different evolutionary hard-wired instincts than dogs and cats so using dogs and cats as the measure by which to gauge snakes is folly. It is like arguing that you can use fish flakes to feed a shark because that is all you need to keep goldfish
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Eh, but was it? Remember, the original quote mentioned “sacrificing” things to a “a predator”. I appreciate your very interesting and clear response but I’m not sure you’re considering the implications of the original post when you suggest that we’re switching food sources - we’re not.
Snakes aren’t domesticated, probably can’t be domesticated, but don’t require sacrifices because they are predators. We don’t need the scene from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom to get a meal down.
We don’t need to be at any point of domestication in order for ball pythons to eat f/t. At minimum we’ve been doing this successfully for a decade at a pretty large scale. To pedantically tell someone they should know better because they have a predator is . It’s gatekeeping nonsense for little kids.
Same goes for colubrids but really we’re probably here to talk about ball pythons. We aren’t converting ball pythons to an alternative food source - only one that we’re not sacrificing. It’s the exact same food source but frozen and then thawed.
Being wired to be an ambush predator by biological imperative is clearly, clearly, CLEARLY, CLEARLY not a problem as we’ve been doing it for decades!
Is it? I think it’s more like arguing you can feed dead fish to a dolphin and do not have to perform some live feeding ritual to sacrifice anything… we’ve definitely got a string of odd conclusions going here.
We’ve got some logic spreading quite pervasively!
(To be very clear I mean that to include the “sacrifice” to “predator” thing, my dogs and cats thing, and the shark thing)
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Yikes bro.