I will not buy an older snake who is on live food since I’ve had more trouble with them than new babies. As silly as it seems I don’t have the time to work with a snake that won’t just take their f/t meal right then and there. Course I know when it comes to breeding its gonna be a different story, I’ll have to make time for the hatchlings, but for right now I need snakes that will just eat for me.
As for someone else’s comment on not being able to breed unless you have live prey ready to go, gotta call bunk on that. I have two breeders I know of, one of them a good friend of mine, who feed f/t either right away or within one or two feedings. And my good friend had 8 clutches this year (not a lot by some standards but still) using only f/t to feed.
I plan on feeding only f/t to my own eventual clutches. If I can’t handle the cost then I simply won’t breed as seriously as some. There is no reason why a snake HAS to get live other than convenience of the breeder. Heck even pre killed could be done in that case. I can understand a baby needing a bit of help understanding what food is, but then to continue is again… Convenience. Which is fine.
Just know that for some purchasers being on f/t ahead of time does change if they want to buy or not.
When a new keeper is purchasing a new snake it is completely understandable for them to expect it to be on f/t. Most sellers will even agree to switch it for you if you wait. There’s also whole thread on the topic to help you.
The only time I’ve had a problem with a newly acquired/rescued ball python is when they are mousers.
Experienced keepers shouldn’t be afraid to purchase animals on live. They’re usually trivial to switch, even as an adult, and you’ll be ahead of the game by several weeks (most sellers fast animals up to a month before shipping to avoid poo-bag on delivery). Inexperienced keepers a week into having a new animal may fret that it won’t eat but really by the time you’re feeding it… it should already be a month into a fast and ready to chomp on anything resembling food. Over-worry, expectations that ball pythons feed like other animals (ie: daily), odd husbandry, and general inexperienced can even lead to someone accidentally reverting an animal to live feed.
It may be. It probably isn’t. When they’re hatchlings it is nerve wracking to have a non-eater. If they eat when live hits the floor then that’s less worry. Hatchlings are at a particularly vulnerable stage in development (obviously) so whatever breeders can do… they will. After 100 grams or so you’re pretty much in the clear and can risk a missed week (or two… or three). Breeders love the animals as much as keepers/potential purchasers do and they’ll do whatever they believe it takes.
With all that said, if given the option to purchase an animal already on f/t versus an equivalent one that is listed as on live I would also probably opt for f/t already.
First, dogs and cats have been domesticated for millennia and, through that domestication process, we have altered their feeding behaviour. Snakes are not domesticated. Do you honestly believe that if you were to take 100 Canids or Felids straight out of the wild and offer them only kibble you would get a 100% conversion?
Second, Canids are not obligate active ambush predators, they are omnivores and opportunists. Felids are also opportunists. So converting them to an alternate food source is/was less of a challenge.
Third, you discount biological imperative. Snakes have entirely different evolutionary hard-wired instincts than dogs and cats so using dogs and cats as the measure by which to gauge snakes is folly. It is like arguing that you can use fish flakes to feed a shark because that is all you need to keep goldfish
Eh, but was it? Remember, the original quote mentioned “sacrificing” things to a “a predator”. I appreciate your very interesting and clear response but I’m not sure you’re considering the implications of the original post when you suggest that we’re switching food sources - we’re not.
Snakes aren’t domesticated, probably can’t be domesticated, but don’t require sacrifices because they are predators. We don’t need the scene from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom to get a meal down.
We don’t need to be at any point of domestication in order for ball pythons to eat f/t. At minimum we’ve been doing this successfully for a decade at a pretty large scale. To pedantically tell someone they should know better because they have a predator is . It’s gatekeeping nonsense for little kids.
Same goes for colubrids but really we’re probably here to talk about ball pythons. We aren’t converting ball pythons to an alternative food source - only one that we’re not sacrificing. It’s the exact same food source but frozen and then thawed.
Being wired to be an ambush predator by biological imperative is clearly, clearly, CLEARLY, CLEARLY not a problem as we’ve been doing it for decades!
Is it? I think it’s more like arguing you can feed dead fish to a dolphin and do not have to perform some live feeding ritual to sacrifice anything… we’ve definitely got a string of odd conclusions going here.
We’ve got some logic spreading quite pervasively!
(To be very clear I mean that to include the “sacrifice” to “predator” thing, my dogs and cats thing, and the shark thing)
Jinkies, Daphne. I’ve flagged your post for being off-topic as you’ve failed to use your words (again) and to avoid another weirdly trolly side trek into a debate on how wet water is. This is normally not how Discourse goes.
I try and at least offer f/t to animals i don’t plan on keeping because it seems more and more people are refusing to offer live food (not meant in a bad way, if that is what you prefer great) But there is never a guarantee that the animal will continue take f/t once in your home. I have a killer bee that would not eat a rat live or f/t period end of story but he would eat anything else you put in front him live or f/t. Forward to 12 years later he switched one day last year to only taking live rats so as stated before no guarantee that they will continue to take f/t.
I have to ask when you purchased the animal did they say it was eating f/t or live only? I only feed live to my breeders just because it is difficult to feed f/t to over 200 adults and extremely expensive if you have to order them and don’t live close enough to pick up a large quantity. Anything that is not staying with me is offered f/t just in case the customer likes to feed f/t and i am always honest with person if they won’t take f/t and how well they take f/t. I have some babies that will take f/t but prefer live.
More and more people are refusing to offer live food because it has become unnecessary. There was a time when people tried suggesting that freezing destroyed nutrients, robbed a snake of some vital essence, destroyed their natural instincts, and was only practiced by peace loving hippies… and all of these were completely and utterly busted. Proponents of live feeding includes individuals like Kevin McCurley of NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) who has published a book with a whole chapter on feeding ball pythons that’s a decade and a half old.
Many breeders are keeping rodents to euthanize and freeze themselves. You get a healthy backstock of animals in a variety of sizes. Services like RodentPro, etc, will deliver to your door for ~$25 shipping and ~$1-2 each for adult rats. That would add up to $825 ($400+$400+25) if you had to feed 200 adult snakes and ordered monthly. It’s up to you if you can eat that cost or not.
New MM member here but personally, I am someone who will walk away from an animal I want if it’s on life food. I don’t have enough experience switching an animal to be confident about it, and I prefer f/t. I am totally fine with feeding live if I have to with a snake that needs it. That being said, I have no desire to knowingly bring an animal that is established on live into my collection.
I do want to breed someday (small scale, just as a hobby) and if I had babies that needed live, I’d definitely do it. So it’s not a case of me being 100% against it. I do wish more breeders fed frozen thawed to most of their sale snakes if they can.
Most people are fine feeding f/t. Most snakes take live without issue. The same can’t be said in reverse. Meaning, theoretically, if almost all snakes on the market were on f/t, more sales would occur.
I know people say they don’t lose sales for feeding live, but I doubt I’m the only person who’s walked away from a snake because of it. I spend hours at times searching for a single listing in the morphs I want that is on f/t. I’ve turned away from plenty of snakes I would have bought otherwise during those hours.
Looking at it from a totally objective standpoint, it makes sense to try to get all sales on frozen, because you’re appealing to BOTH the live and frozen markets (since almost all on f/t can be switched to live). Otherwise you turn your back on the f/t side of buyers, limiting your sales in the long run. And if cost of bulk f/t is a concern, raising your own rodents and buiding your own CO chamber isn’t that hard and lowers costs. Just my thoughts on it!
I honestly think this discussion over live vs f/t is never going to end. For both there will be proponents of both sides. We all can conclude that there is enough history of keeping ball pythons that we know by now that both have pro’s and cons. Live feeding you can breed yourself, is cheaper eventually if you have multiple snakes and if you snake doesn’t want to eat, there was no rat live lost in vain. On the other side it can be difficult to feed a cute rat to a snake and see it die. On top of that there is the risk of the rat biting the snake. F/t has the benefit that you don’t directly have to kill the rat yourself (I by now heard enough stories about how some sellers kill the f/t rats they sell that I will not bring up the human killing argument), if your snake doesn’t eat you will not be stranded with a new “pet” which in a few weeks is to big to feed to your snake, dead rats don’t bite your snake and if you buy online or at expo’s you can fill up your freezer for al longer time and don’t have to keep a load of smelling rats in your house. Or the other side,
f/t is in general more expensive, if you have many snakes it can be a hustle to defrost 200 rats to feed your snakes and be prepared to also “feed” rats to your garbage bin.
I personally can understand all the motivations for both sides, but now we come back to the topic. Should a seller of snake convert their snakes before selling to f/t. I think it depends on the buyers you are aiming for. Experienced keepers will most likely buy both. They either feed live or they already know how to convert the snake. If you sell a 1000 dollar snake is in general not going to be bought by a brand new snake keeper. When you are new everything is beautifull so you most likely buy a cheaper one. So if you feed your snakes live I don’t think it will be to much problem to sell them like that.
If you have cheaper snakes you have more chance they are going to be bought by less experienced buyers with only few snakes and they most likely want to feed f/t because where are they going to find only one live rat every week? I personally would choose to convert those to f/t before selling. Not only because most of the buyers will like it more, but also because I would be afraid to sell my snake to an in experienced buyer who doesn’t have the tips and trips to convert them to f/t. Likewise I don’t want to sell my snake before it is an established eater, I wouldn’t want to sell my snake before it is an established eater on the food the buyer is going to feed. I would be to worried that the buyer would get the experience @ gjdossett described, or/and the snake end up to be one of those malnourished snakes who end up as rescue’s or even worst. If I didn’t manage to covert to f/t than I know a beginner can also not, and I would advise them to be prepared to feed live or not buy the snake. When we bought our first snake the seller was very open about feeding and did advise us against a snake who he didn’t convert yet and I really respect that. The answer to me is , know your buyers and feed accordingly.
Me myself prefere f/t. I like rats and mise. Think they are cute so have difficulty to feed them to my snakes. I know I’ts kind of hypocritical because maybe I didn’t kill it but the rat had to be killed. It is like @asura mentioned. Even though I don’t want to kill a cow doesn’t mean I can not eat beef. On top o that I don’t want rats ending up as pets. On the other side, if I knowingly bought a snake that only eats live, and I don’t manage to convert it, than I just have to feed live because made the commitment by buying the snake to take care of it the best I can and starving it because it doesn’t want to eat what I want is to me not part of that deal. On the other side I can not promise that I will not eventually sell the snake to someone who has lesser problem with the feeding. For babies I’m prepared to feed live if they don’t eat f/t because to get them to eat is main priority and converting can come later.
Me myself I bought 3 ball pythons who were used to f/t and 6 who were used to live feeders. 3 of them babies, 3 over one year. All of them eat f/t now. Our boa I bought because I really liked her but also as a “garbage disposal” for the rats that don’t get eaten by the balls. It pains me to throw a rats away because my snakes don’t want to eat. A poor rats life lost in vain. But our boa is always happy to see the food coming .
One last thing, please breeders, convert your snake you sell to rats before they turn one year old. That is a bigger problem if they are older and likewise as a breeder you don’t want your females staying on mise, we as buyers don’t want that either.
I actually do breed my own rats, and it is extremely difficult, takes up a lot of space and time to grow up feeders large enough to feed to adult breeders then freeze them off and not only that they take up a lot of space in a freezer so you need a very large freezer to keep them.I am sure many breeders with only a handful of adults to feed and only a few clutches to feed don’t have any issues with having enough to be able to do this. But when you have the adults, hold backs and 500 plus babies to feed it isn’t as easy to keep feeders around long enough to be large enough freeze. And i don’t about anyone else but i don’t have an extra $825 laying around each month to order from rodent pro and that was only taking into account the adults that was not including the price of feeders for 500 plus babies i produced last season and the 60 plus grow up/hold backs i have. Also $1-2 is for small feeder rats which are only 45-84 grams, not adult rats.
The rats I used for the estimate were 85-175 grams. Check again if you’re interested. You may also be able to swing something if you’re ordering 200 at a time. I absolutely assure you that the quote was grossly overestimated. It’s very possible you could get it down significantly.
To be fair, if you have 500 hatchlings and 200 adults to feed… What does that cost in bedding, food, and work for rats? You must have over 1000 rodents to keep the feed population up and producing enough to keep the hatchlings fed, yeah?
While I appreciate where you’re coming from I feel like the only people this is going to be a problem for is new snake owners and possibly a select handful of experienced keepers. Most experienced keepers understand the issues behind this well enough to know why it’s not a realistic expectation. They also know that there are usually plenty of small scale breeders who will switch the babies over to f/t feeders that they can purchase from if it’s important. I feel like most experienced keepers are in the same boat as myself; if I want a particular animal it dosen’t matter to me if its eating live or f/t as we will end up getting it on whatever we need it to be on. The newer keepers who care will simply move on to another animal because what the animal is feeding on is more important. Either way the animals will all end up being sold.
As someone that has had a few pets rats, I can say from experience that just a few cost more to feed and take more time to care for than any snake. Unless you aren’t worried about quality of life/food, since they are going to be dead at some point anyway. I can only imagine how hellish hundreds of rodents would be to care for. I live close to ARS, so even if I grow my collection of snakes, I am just gonna stock up on frozen rodents since caring for a ton of live ones will cost me more (food, time, caging, etc) than them.
Definitely. I’ve had a few pet rats in the past and food + bedding alone can get up there just for pets.
At a very large scale if you have scrubbers, gallons of chlorohexadine, 2 hours a day to flip racks, etc to control the smell of thousands of rodents… I really do wonder what the actual costs of raise vs order are at a medium to large scale.
And then we don’t even talk about the smell. Really love rats. Had gerbils myself for years and took care of some normal rats of a friend during holidays. Sweet animals, fun to watch but was always happy when they came to pick them up after holiday because of the smell.
I always buy frozen rats at expo’s. Go several times a year to large expo’s to feed my reptile watching addiction and then just fill up my freezer. Because of larger amounts they are cheaper.
So i pay $875 for a pallet (50 bags) of harlan rat food which will last about 3 months. I have 25 racks 6 tubs per rack with 2 females per tub with 2 males that get rotated within the rack each week. I get 15 bags of pine shavings and 15 bags of equine pellets that will last about a month with changing the tubs weekly and as needed which only cost me about $150 at tractor supply. I also run 2 carbon filters in the building along with exhaust fans. compared to the last time i ordered f/t from rodent pro which was 200 weaned rats $208/ 200 pups $178 /100 sm mice $39/ pink mice 100 $19/ 200 fuzzy mice $49 in total came out to $559 (this was with a sale on some of the items ordered) shipped which after feeding 2 twice this month i am going to need to make another order of rats soon. I have included a screen shot of rodent pros current pricing with weights for each size of rat.
Here is a link to ARS if you ever need cheaper f/t rodents. https://www.americanrodent.com/index.php I buy from them and they have really since sales a lot.
Also, with all of the work, racks, food, and everything else for the rats, I think the price of each option is probably around the same. The frozen rodents being the easier option by far. Taking care of hundreds of rats and dealing with the smell is something that would actually put me at risk for an asthma attack, which is why I had to give my pet rats to my mother as a gift. A lot of large scale breeders make it sound like dealing with live rodents is easy and cheap, but it is actually expensive and time consuming. At least with frozen rodents you only have the expensive part, and less stink.
logic.
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