Morph Issues [Ball Pythons]

Can you provide documentation?

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I think that (single-gene) lesser pied is also small-eyed, not just the super form.

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That is correct.

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I was just informed today by a member I highly trust on here that Scaleless has fertility issues like Desert? Is there a reason we don’t add this to the list of known morph issues. I feel people should be made aware as this will potentially save some a lot of money investing in a project they can’t see come to fruition.

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I just heard about it for the first time a few days ago. If anyone has any information to add, that would be great. I’m not going to add based off someone telling us what an unnamed breeder supposedly said tho. Given the history of the morph and it’s popularity, it would be quite the upset for the hobby. I’d like to hear multiple first hand accounts before adding it as concrete.

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I’ve heard this as well. I know the pairings with visual females I’ve heard of people I know doing haven’t produced any viable clutches. I think it’s know among breeders who have tried but no one is willing to share to info. You will be hard pressed to find any pictures of a female sitting on her own eggs.

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I would be really interested to hear the observations regarding fertility in scaleless, particular females.

A few things spring to mind at first - namely, scaleless are known for (at least to my knowledge) growing more slowly and being generally more fragile - shedding more often, needing higher humidity, etc. so I wonder if it’s a true fertility issue or if it’s more of a side effect due to the other issues the morph causes, that females just may not often get to a large enough size with a strong enough body that they are able to carry eggs?

If it is a true fertility issue, I wonder if perhaps inhibiting the development of scales also impacts the development of other things we are unable to see that may affect fertility - hormones, organ and muscle growth, etc.

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I concur with Matt, this has been a near constant rumour with the morph for some time. And we all know that this morph has a pretty colourful history when it comes to the rumour mill so some actual solid documentation would be preferred

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@t_h_wyman Do you know anyone who has a visual female lay eggs? I haven’t even heard one person make this claim. It’s going to be hard to document anything when no breeders are willing to step forward with the info. They have been around 6 or 7 years so someone has had to try Breeding them. Thing that concerns me is that people are buying these animals and don’t even know the possibility of them infertile.

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If big breeders come out and say anything, then they can’t sell these animals for $$$$. I doubt it will happen willingly in the near future. For the time being, I say put a warning of “possible fertility issues” on them would be best.

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I have not heard of any documented clutches from females. I agree that it is difficult when larger breeders are not willing to talk, but inevitably the answer comes out when someone smaller steps up with documentation. That was how it went with Candy/Toffee being allellic and Desert female problems.
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I disagree with doing this. Right now it is an unsubstantiated rumour that seems to be half born out of the trend of just continuing to slapping issues on the controversial morph. First it was that they all had failure to thrive and died, until Mr. Skin was displayed at Daytona. Then it was that they could only be kept on paper, until breeders started showing them on ReptiChip and aspen. Then it was that they could only eat F/T because a live item could kill them, until some people showed live feeding vids. Then it was that they had to be fed smaller meals only because a “normal-sized” meal would cause their skin to split, until people showed their 500g animal eating a small rat. Then it was that they could not shed properly, until CA put out his vids.

I am not claiming that there is no issue with female Scaleless, I just feel that, in the absence of anything other than unsubstantiated rumour, the boards, and by extension MorphMarket itself, should not be perpetuating the rumour

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The big breeders can afford to take a hit and keep going. But if they prove to infertile this could sour a lot of people on the hobby in general. I’m not advocating putting out misinformation but what do we tell the people who had no clue? There needs to be a greater sense of transparency in the hobby in general. Breeders who possibly know could still be making money off of people who have no clue that the infertility is a real possibility. I’m sure anyone who bought into desert or caramel wish they could of had all available and know information at the time.

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I agree with you, but that is what sets this situation a bit apart.

With Desert, it started when people started asking where the superform was. It could be fairly argued that the big breeders were sitting quiet but a lot of smaller folk started talking. The same kind of thing happened with Caramel.

But here, the rumour just kind of started one day. No one came forward saying “Hey, my female Scaleless keeps slugging out, anyone else having this problem?” Instead, about five years ago, a rather vocal mid-level breeder posted everywhere ScalelessHead was even mentioned with “I am not buying into ScalelessHead/Scaleless until I see a female on eggs” and then the thing kind of just took off from there

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Not on the topic of scaleless, but rather with Super GHI - I’ve heard multiple people say that sometimes super GHI hatchlings are really wrinkly/textured and shed more often than regular hatchlings, and then they normalize after a few months. I even remember seeing pictures of wrinkly super GHI babies this past season, I’ll see if I can find them. Has anyone else had issues with that, or do we have other documentation of that?

Edit: here’s the pic I was talking about. Not sure if outside links are allowed, so if not please remove or I can edit. M. Joy Morphs Super GHI on Instagram

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@t_h_wyman The big issue for me is in any other industry if you mass produce and sell a defective product you are held accountable. Nobody is ever held accountable for any of this misinformation. The reptile community as a whole doesn’t deserve to be misled or deceived. Any one purchasing an animal from any breeder deserves full disclosure of any issues or possible issues. The scaleless females might be capable of laying eggs. Would not be the first time I’ve been wrong and sure not the last. But after 7 years still no females laying eggs? Surely that throws a lot of flags.

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I have seen a few super GHI and none have been wrinkly. Honestly it seems like it would be a humidity/hydration issue more than anything. And newly hatched babies can be wrinkly until their first shed from what I have seen. I would first see if the babies that supposedly stay wrinkly are from inbred lines, then look at husbandry. That particular snake looks small enough to have just hatched not long ago. Thin enough too. It could even be an incubation issue.

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Justin Weinrich of Morph Jungle has produced a large number of them and claims it to be a common issue. I first heard about it 4-5 years ago. It does seem to work itself out in all cases I’m aware of.

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I know Miranda personally, this not dehydrated egg skin.

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I’ve heard as well that it works itself out, so I’m not super worried about it - I guess just curious about the frequency. That Instagram post was the first I had heard of the issue but I’m fairly new to the breeding side of the hobby, so definitely don’t have the relationships established with folks to have heard things like this generally. Curious why it happens as well - wonder if it’s an incubation issue that super GHI are just more prone to, or something else.

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Again, I do not disagree with you.

However, the reptile community as a whole has, unfortunately, openly accepted and welcomed misinformation by refusing to hold any of the “icons” in the community accountable. The inertia there is difficult to overcome… :confused:

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