Palumbo and I talked about it on his show… I just cannot recall which strain it was because boas are not my thing so my retention level is low with them
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It is Khal that the buggy eyes, sometimes appear more so visual x visual. I remember seeing an episode on Jason’s exotic on YouTube.
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Thank you for the info everyone
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It’s definitely both sharp and kahl that can have bulging eyes.
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It’s not due to inbreeding. Seems like a melanocyte mediation of eye development issue to me.
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This is a copy paste from my discord. Let me know if you have any questions.
Super motley - lethal by 2, hetero still missing some amount of muscle and has small head and blown out sides
Super jungle - lethal to some initially others at 2-3 yo and the rest as older adults, any reproduction from these is a rumor from europe, there’s a handful over 5 but woo that’s a real victory to have a barely functioning 8 yo that cant breed
Smoke - keltic motley functionally like a super motley, basically a snake with a time limit
Super hypo - blown tire sidewalls, there’s some sort of musculature issue, breeds just fine and normal lifespan as far as anyone can tell
Super aztec - lethal to some, failure to the thrive in most, some of them live for awhile, I’ve never heard of them breeding
Raptor - just fine
Keywest/rlt/parsons - supers seem to die at an unusually high rate at birth, so they drown before birth, blown out sides like a super hypo imo
All T+ lines - seem fine
Onyx/leopard - this could be a boa sigma problem but they cant digest well as babies, get big bellies and die if over fed, it seems to me like its more common in the homozygote
Zero - some percent have narrow heads, no idea about long term issues with the narrow headed ones, zeros homozygotes do breed
Sangria/blood - het and homos seem okay
Kahl/sharp - bulging eyes full of fluid at birth, some eyes fail, some eye recover, linked to melanocyte not mediating eye formation so you cant breed away and antibiotics doesnt help keep the eye unless its getting secondarily infected
Kraken - not monogenic
Sterling - if zeros can have narrow heads can these as well?
Anerys - all of them beautiful and perfect in every way
Imgs - seem good, although how many people have a known homozygote
Marron - homozygotes dont breed as far as the internet will tell me
Fires - thin skin, small sclaes sometimes small eyes, i havent played with a homo fire but they breed… clearly
Jablonski ss - just fine
Labyrinth - heterozygote seems fine, rumors that some of the heterozygotes just never want to breed, no rumors about the homozygote yet. They’re all reportedly alive and doing okay.
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I personally have not seen this in any of the Sterlings I have seen. It is a pretty obvious thing in Zeros.
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I agree I’ve never seen narrow heads in sterlings either but boa people aren’t always the most forthcoming. Also, Idk if it’s “obvious” in zeros. Most zeros are normal. It seems rare for them to have a narrow head but common enough to me that it’s either legitimately a potential byproduct of the mutation or another mutant allele that needs to breed out of that lineage.
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At least in my opinion it’s obvious when you think about the stocker head of the normal Colombian.
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I don’t mean the morphology differences due to the natural variations between different localities. I’m saying that there are zeros where the heads look almost like super motley’s in terms of narrowness and distortion. I’ve attached a picture as an example.
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Yes, I am agreeing with you, the head is lacking the prominent muscle structures. Also with a very short pointed nose instead of the normal more triangle/arrow shape with a clean stop for the “mustache”.
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What about abrasque x abrasque? I have heard that there is a homo form but that there is also fertility issues with that pairing. Does anyone have any experience with this pairing?
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I haven’t heard anything about the homozygote arabesque but since it’s dominant it would take a careful breeder to determine if the probable supers have a higher than normal failure to thrive rate.
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Onyx is Honduran (imperator) not sigma.
Keltic c motley general has the same issues as super motley and super Keltic.
Super Aztec aren’t great and usually DOA or have issues. The Potts have bred from a few super Aztec. How many they have lost trying is unknown.
They are now openly agreeing there are issues with super aztec.
Kahl are more known for bug eyes than sharp. Albino being a defect and known the have eye issues in all animals.
Never heard of any blown tire super hypo issues. That’s new to me. Never had any issues with super hypo I’ve made and as said never heard of it in what 20 odd years. Maybe something new in some peoples collections.
Arabesques have always been a bit delicate.
There is no super as in the homogeneous won’t make a full litter of arabesques.
Not sure on the statement about if zeros can sterling’s can. Sterling’s came from a pastel imperator and zero is Longiclauda.
Jeff Ronne has mentioned that VPI t+ should be slowly grown and not rushed or they may not do well.
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Wow Martyn!
This is great, thank you.
Ill get these updates added
I actually spoke to Freek Nuyt directly about the Onyx, where they “guarantee that the digestive issues are total nonsense, as is the remark that it is more common in the superform”
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My notes for the belly issues that have been reported were for leopard/sigma. I don’t have any onyx but if they are the same gene and not just allelic I had assumed issues would be found in both. My apologies if onyx don’t share this issue. Perhaps, it’d be better to split the morphs up then when discussing faults. I think the fact that they originated in different species should be evidence enough that they probably should be discussed separately.
I’ve never seen a narrow headed sterling either so my speculation is only based on the fact that the same gene appears to be mutated in both localities. Although in this case they’re both imperator even if originating from different regions. I don’t believe anyone has tested the compatibility of the two mutations to know for sure if they are allelic.
The super hypo issue is not necessarily a strong fault in the animal. It’s more like a super hypo at rest will spread out further than a similarly conditioned singe gene hypo or normal. The tension their muscles provide to their body is reduced versus a normal. This makes sense if you think about the fact that motley and hypo are allelic and motley has a severe impact on muscle formation while hypo only has a minor one that is more pronounced in the homozygote.
I have sharp albinos with the eye fluid retention at birth issue. I don’t know if any one can say with absolutely certainly which line has the condition more often, this is especially complicated by the fact that Kahl line is just more common, but both lines do have the issue.
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It was some US guys that had the digestive issues with leopards, but you know how it is, one bad litter and things get said and stigmas arise. Europe leopards all seemed fine.
Ive never heard of any onyx issues.
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It’s not the same gene. They have all independently formed (onyx/black boa/leopard).
They are compatible but all different in their location with slightly different looks.
Black boa and leopard are Boa imperator- Costa Rican and Honduran. Leopard is Boa sigma.
They have been crossed and are compatible.
Leopard has also been put to both and proven compatible.
A leopard black boa combo is called black Panther. There’s doesn’t seem to be a name for onyx Black boa or onyx leopard.
As said I’ve never noticed any spreading out in super hypos any more than in other morphs. All boas can lie bottom heavy like that at times.
I don’t get your thought at all on this as you go on about motley and hypo.
Hypo and motley have nothing to do with each other as such. Yes they are allele. Hypos don’t show issues. They don’t contribute to issues with motley or super motley. Likely it’s been down to the odd individual rather than any super hypo. I’ve bough super hypo and made litters of super hypos and had no ‘tyre’ issues.
I’ve made crazy amounts of super hypo, hypo motley, sunglow motley and not noticed an ‘tyre’ effect at all. From your reasoning hypo motley and sg motleys should all show even bigger issues. They don’t.
I just don’t believe the statement and even if some do lie heavy like when pregnant or after birth that’s more understandable but can be seen in all morphs. Whom ever you’ve been talking to either has had problems with his boas or making stuff up. I’m going to go ask a few thousand their thoughts on this.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to speculate that just because one morphs looks like another and is allele that they have the same problems. Maybe Peter Kahl was over feeding and had issues. After all we know he would raise female fast to breed at 18-24 months old. I’m surprised all his boas didn’t have digestion issues.
Stirling also has nothing to do with zeros so that just completely made up on someone’s perception rather than reality.
I haven’t heard of issues in any of these morphs. That’s not to say there aren’t but nothing I’ve heard from those breeding these six mentioned morphs.
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Hypo and motley are allelic thus mutations of the same gene. Motley adds pattern and hypo takes it away. Because motleys have issues with muscle formation this gene plays a roll in both muscle formation and melanocyte formation and/or distribution. Since no one really knows what exact roll the affected gene plays biochemically, it’s impossible to prove anything empirically in a post on a forum on the internet. But hypo as a mutant allele of a gene that affects both color and musculature has the capacity to affect both traits. I and others see a variation in the phenotype of musculature of super hypos and you do not. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I’m definitely willing to cede it may be an issue of lineages but a hypo motley being viable makes sense to me in the context where a super hypo is also viable but a super motley is not. There are examples of this across the reptile kingdom. For example in ball pythons, black head and spider. Super black heads are viable, and are on one end of the phenotype range, black head spiders are playing the cancel each other out game and are viable, and super spiders are not viable.
Based on the number of non-viable supers and allelic combos, the incomplete dominant morph game in boas is one where neural crest mutations that cause color and pattern anomalies also often come with both neurological and musculature issues. We just got extremely unlucky that whatever signaling gene we’re finding for fun new mutations is critical to appropriate development.
It may not be fair to speculate on the viability of different mutations based on similar and/or allelic mutations but I think it’s only natural. It’s the internet. I feel like I was pretty clear which one’s I was speculating on and which one’s I’d seen problematic tendencies in personally. The boa industry is pretty notorious for hiding non-viability in it’s morphs. People still make and sell super jungles as viable animals… smh. Any discussion is better than no discussion and I appreciate you sharing your experiences.
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Right, that’s where my comment that it might be the sigma lineage that it’s from that’s causing the issues and not the mutation itself comes form. There’s some breeders in the US that have claimed to have breed the big belly issue out of their lines which implies a second mutation and not an issue with the original gene. But I have seen anyone post breeding trails or litter breakdowns by trait to prove that it was in fact a separate mutation causing the issues. Stargazer was isolated from sunkissed in corn snakes and bred out from most lineages but we have to be careful telling people that if they have an issue with a mutation that it just “needs to just be outcrossed away and one day we’ll isolate out the deleterious clinger gene.” Mutations in genes do have affects on other parts of the snakes biology so instead of just culling the affected animals as a hobby and pretending it never happened, we need to do collectively better to a.) share the observation and b.) perform publicized breeding trials to get a better understanding of how the trait is inherited and if it is in fact linked with the “desirable” mutation.
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