Keltic c motley general has the same issues as super motley and super Keltic.
Super Aztec arenāt great and usually DOA or have issues. The Potts have bred from a few super Aztec. How many they have lost trying is unknown.
They are now openly agreeing there are issues with super aztec.
Kahl are more known for bug eyes than sharp. Albino being a defect and known the have eye issues in all animals.
Never heard of any blown tire super hypo issues. Thatās new to me. Never had any issues with super hypo Iāve made and as said never heard of it in what 20 odd years. Maybe something new in some peoples collections.
Arabesques have always been a bit delicate.
There is no super as in the homogeneous wonāt make a full litter of arabesques.
Not sure on the statement about if zeros can sterlingās can. Sterlingās came from a pastel imperator and zero is Longiclauda.
Jeff Ronne has mentioned that VPI t+ should be slowly grown and not rushed or they may not do well.
I actually spoke to Freek Nuyt directly about the Onyx, where they āguarantee that the digestive issues are total nonsense, as is the remark that it is more common in the superformā
My notes for the belly issues that have been reported were for leopard/sigma. I donāt have any onyx but if they are the same gene and not just allelic I had assumed issues would be found in both. My apologies if onyx donāt share this issue. Perhaps, itād be better to split the morphs up then when discussing faults. I think the fact that they originated in different species should be evidence enough that they probably should be discussed separately.
Iāve never seen a narrow headed sterling either so my speculation is only based on the fact that the same gene appears to be mutated in both localities. Although in this case theyāre both imperator even if originating from different regions. I donāt believe anyone has tested the compatibility of the two mutations to know for sure if they are allelic.
The super hypo issue is not necessarily a strong fault in the animal. Itās more like a super hypo at rest will spread out further than a similarly conditioned singe gene hypo or normal. The tension their muscles provide to their body is reduced versus a normal. This makes sense if you think about the fact that motley and hypo are allelic and motley has a severe impact on muscle formation while hypo only has a minor one that is more pronounced in the homozygote.
I have sharp albinos with the eye fluid retention at birth issue. I donāt know if any one can say with absolutely certainly which line has the condition more often, this is especially complicated by the fact that Kahl line is just more common, but both lines do have the issue.
It was some US guys that had the digestive issues with leopards, but you know how it is, one bad litter and things get said and stigmas arise. Europe leopards all seemed fine.
Ive never heard of any onyx issues.
Itās not the same gene. They have all independently formed (onyx/black boa/leopard).
They are compatible but all different in their location with slightly different looks.
Black boa and leopard are Boa imperator- Costa Rican and Honduran. Leopard is Boa sigma.
They have been crossed and are compatible.
Leopard has also been put to both and proven compatible.
A leopard black boa combo is called black Panther. Thereās doesnāt seem to be a name for onyx Black boa or onyx leopard.
As said Iāve never noticed any spreading out in super hypos any more than in other morphs. All boas can lie bottom heavy like that at times.
I donāt get your thought at all on this as you go on about motley and hypo.
Hypo and motley have nothing to do with each other as such. Yes they are allele. Hypos donāt show issues. They donāt contribute to issues with motley or super motley. Likely itās been down to the odd individual rather than any super hypo. Iāve bough super hypo and made litters of super hypos and had no ātyreā issues.
Iāve made crazy amounts of super hypo, hypo motley, sunglow motley and not noticed an ātyreā effect at all. From your reasoning hypo motley and sg motleys should all show even bigger issues. They donāt.
I just donāt believe the statement and even if some do lie heavy like when pregnant or after birth thatās more understandable but can be seen in all morphs. Whom ever youāve been talking to either has had problems with his boas or making stuff up. Iām going to go ask a few thousand their thoughts on this.
I donāt think itās a good idea to speculate that just because one morphs looks like another and is allele that they have the same problems. Maybe Peter Kahl was over feeding and had issues. After all we know he would raise female fast to breed at 18-24 months old. Iām surprised all his boas didnāt have digestion issues.
Stirling also has nothing to do with zeros so that just completely made up on someoneās perception rather than reality.
I havenāt heard of issues in any of these morphs. Thatās not to say there arenāt but nothing Iāve heard from those breeding these six mentioned morphs.
Hypo and motley are allelic thus mutations of the same gene. Motley adds pattern and hypo takes it away. Because motleys have issues with muscle formation this gene plays a roll in both muscle formation and melanocyte formation and/or distribution. Since no one really knows what exact roll the affected gene plays biochemically, itās impossible to prove anything empirically in a post on a forum on the internet. But hypo as a mutant allele of a gene that affects both color and musculature has the capacity to affect both traits. I and others see a variation in the phenotype of musculature of super hypos and you do not. I think weāll have to agree to disagree.
Iām definitely willing to cede it may be an issue of lineages but a hypo motley being viable makes sense to me in the context where a super hypo is also viable but a super motley is not. There are examples of this across the reptile kingdom. For example in ball pythons, black head and spider. Super black heads are viable, and are on one end of the phenotype range, black head spiders are playing the cancel each other out game and are viable, and super spiders are not viable.
Based on the number of non-viable supers and allelic combos, the incomplete dominant morph game in boas is one where neural crest mutations that cause color and pattern anomalies also often come with both neurological and musculature issues. We just got extremely unlucky that whatever signaling gene weāre finding for fun new mutations is critical to appropriate development.
It may not be fair to speculate on the viability of different mutations based on similar and/or allelic mutations but I think itās only natural. Itās the internet. I feel like I was pretty clear which oneās I was speculating on and which oneās Iād seen problematic tendencies in personally. The boa industry is pretty notorious for hiding non-viability in itās morphs. People still make and sell super jungles as viable animalsā¦ smh. Any discussion is better than no discussion and I appreciate you sharing your experiences.
Right, thatās where my comment that it might be the sigma lineage that itās from thatās causing the issues and not the mutation itself comes form. Thereās some breeders in the US that have claimed to have breed the big belly issue out of their lines which implies a second mutation and not an issue with the original gene. But I have seen anyone post breeding trails or litter breakdowns by trait to prove that it was in fact a separate mutation causing the issues. Stargazer was isolated from sunkissed in corn snakes and bred out from most lineages but we have to be careful telling people that if they have an issue with a mutation that it just āneeds to just be outcrossed away and one day weāll isolate out the deleterious clinger gene.ā Mutations in genes do have affects on other parts of the snakes biology so instead of just culling the affected animals as a hobby and pretending it never happened, we need to do collectively better to a.) share the observation and b.) perform publicized breeding trials to get a better understanding of how the trait is inherited and if it is in fact linked with the ādesirableā mutation.
This is a valid point. SuperBlkPastel and SuperCinny balls are known for kinking and duckbill but RedAx, SuperEnchi, SuperHuffman, SuperLori, all the other alleles in the group, and combinations therein, do not suffer from those malformations.
That said, it is not necessarily bad practice to at least keep the possibility in mind because there are cases where the extension does seem to apply: Spider, HGW, Woma, Champagne, Blackhead, etc
Onyx, BB, leopard. Warren actually explains it as:Not just at the same
chromosome but are the same gene but different mutations (therefore
different alleles) of the same
gene.
Cant say I study genes to his extent, so Iāll take his word for it.
Onyx is Honduran (imperator) not sigma.