This is a list of all the morphs and combos that have known issues associated with them. Feel free to reply with updates to this list.
Last Update: December 15 2021
| Morph | Issue | Source | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|
| [1] | |||
| [2] | |||
| Palmetto | bug/enlarged eyes | ||
| Stargazer | Causes severe neurological issues, to the point where many snakes have to be culled | [3] |
Palmetto corns have bug/enlarged eyes.
I’ve never heard of Caramel or stripe having any issues. (And I’ve also worked with both morphs and haven’t had issues with them personally.) Looked through the source you have listed for those, and the person listing all the defects doesn’t have any sources listed for their info.
Lavenders have higher incidence of kinking.
I’ve scratched them off until we can find a true source
Sunkissed is, I believe, the original source of the Stargazer gene in corns, which is a recessive trait that causes severe neurological issues, to the point where many snakes have to be culled. Though it was originally discovered in Sunkissed animals, I believe it’s been outcrossed to many other genes. Homozygous Stargazer animals have the severe neurological issues, but het Stargazers can pass it on. Because of this I believe many European breeders especially use known het Stargazer animals to test others, and if an animal proves to be het Stargazer it often involves culling all of the offspring and culling or pet-only rehoming the het individual.
It is true that Stargazers first appeared in Sunkissed lines. It’s also true that, thanks to a tremendous amount of honest and difficult work on the part of a number of people involving many, many test breedings, it has been conclusively shown that Stargazer is a separate gene from Sunkissed. Thanks to these countless efforts and ethical practice, the Stargazer gene is now exceedingly rare. Although there is in some quarters a perception that that Sunkissed and Stargazer is linked, this is no longer the case. In fact, it was never truly a genetic linkage; the association was based on the initial occurrence of Stargazer in Sunkissed corns. It could have happened in any morph.
There is more information in the Morphpedia citations. For those who’d like a deeper dive, additional discussions going back a number of years are available on Cornsnakes.com. Also, when researching Stargazer or any genetic information, it’s important to be aware of source dates. (Note: I haven’t been directly involved in any of this research. I am profoundly grateful to those who were/are.)
@solarserpents @caryl we are always seeing many Palmettos flagged as being bug-eyed. Do you think this is a issue that warrants a disclaimer on Palmetto listings, as we do with other issue traits:
I know you didn’t ask me, but it doesn’t feel as necessary to me to put a disclaimer about the bug eyes. It’s not a discreet or subtle issue like stargazing or wobble, but one that can be clearly seen in a representative photo. I’m not opposed to a warning about the possibility for bug eyes but there do exist examples of both palmetto corns and leucistic Texas rats that do not have bug eyes.
Yeah, I think I agree with this. Wobble can’t be seen from a photo, but bug eyes are pretty obvious. I worry that putting that warning on all palmetto listings might make a potential buyer of a non-bug eye palmetto think that all palmettos develop bug eyes over time (which they don’t) and discourage them from buying. But maybe a little warning that said some palmettos have the bug eye condition would be okay?
Thank you guys!!
Just to be clear, this is just for discussion purposes … we do not have any plans to add this anytime soon
I personally think it’s all but necessary at this point, especially with so many breeders recently explicitly not stating their animals are bug-eyed despite the photo showing some degree of enlargement, not using the pet only tag (which should be required for these animals), and selling them full price despite defects. There are also breeders who post photos that don’t even show both eyes or are from an angle you wouldn’t be able to tell from the photos. It has gotten much worse recently as well. We wouldn’t necessarily need a disclaimer if people were educated and being truthful.
The thing is, any Palmetto breeding with another Palmetto can produce bug-eyed animals, and we need to be upfront about this, considering how many new keepers & breeders have come into the hobby recently. As long as the disclaimer is well-worded to make it clear these snakes don’t just develop enlarged eyes over time, it shouldn’t have any impact on sales.
That’s basically what was proposed by Thomas. I think it might be helpful if the “Learn More” led to photos showing both hatchling and adult Palmetto comparison photos, one animal with normal eyes and the other with enlarged, that way there’s a visual comparison someone who might not understand what to look for can use.
That’s true, I have noticed this. I feel like when palmetto was first coming down in price, there was an obvious distinction between bug eye and regular eye prices and breeders were pretty clear about noting the bug eyes in the description.
It used to be very clear, with no nonsense photos and notable price differences. Used to be a Palmetto with perfect eyes was around $500, with the bug-eyed animals being closer to $350. Now with prices coming down further and more new breeders, the waters have gotten muddied and it’s much harder to discern.
I’ve also seen more than one breeder trying to pass off animals with a more subtle defect as having perfect eyes, which irks me more than it should. Add to all of that these new breeders who have popped up whose listing photos are of such poor quality half the time the animal’s head is a blur, it’s a headache waiting to happen.
I agree that the issue of the link between bug eyes and Palmetto is worth an educational note of some type. Maybe I’m wrong, but it really does seem like there are more animals with a greater expression of the defect being sold now than just a couple of years ago. I understand that bug eyes cannot truly be bred out of Palmetto, but ignoring the defect and breeding/producing animals giant bug eyes while pretending that’s normal sn’t the answer either.
I really like this idea. Maybe even with a third pair of exemplars; normal, medium expression of enlarged eyes, seriously enlarged eyes. This could be very helpful. Hatchlings normally have cranial proportions which differ from adults. People who are newer to the hobby may have a harder time sussing or the distance between normally “big” baby eyes and eyes which can indicate a problem.
I like that idea too.
Sort of a side note, but I haven’t seen many, or maybe any, pictures of bug eyed adults. I’ve seen some babies with truly humongous eyes. I’m wondering if they’re less noticeable once the head gets larger.
Just a thought, and I don’t know if it would be possible, but could there be an extra dropdown for breeders to select from in morphs that have frequently associated issues? Wobble in jaguar carpet pythons or various ball pythons, bug eyes in palmetto corns or leucistic Texas rats, etc. If the seller selects no on said dropdown and the buyer notices said issue in a sale then the animal was misrepresented. I feel like this could alleviate a whole lot of issues on the buyer end.
I’m hesitant on this, but only because I unfortunately see a lot of intentional misrepresentation from breeders. For instance, my experience is primarily with ball pythons, but with the spider morph in particular MANY breeders will advertise spiders as “no wobble!” when I have personally never once in my life observed a spider that didn’t display some degree of wobble symptoms, even if it wasn’t an outright corkscrew. Additionally, many breeders will also use the excuse “well the wobble can get worse with bad husbandry, it didn’t wobble while I had it” as an excuse to avoid accountability. So while I definitely see the benefit from the buyer’s side, I see it causing a lot more conflicts and complications for MM.
Just as a side note, I have seen multiple palmetto adults with noticeable bug eyes. It’s possible that to some extend they may grow into them, but is definitely a persisting issue.
I’ve noticed this too. I’m certainly no expert on the subject, but it’s my understanding that all spiders have the neurological defect that causes wobble, because the gene that alters the pattern also causes the neuro defect. There’s no such thing as a spider with no wobble. Some are subtle and may only be noticeable when the snake is excited or stressed, but they all have it to some degree. I believe it’s the same with the jag gene in carpets, and the scoria gene in boas. I’m a little unclear on whether all “wobble morphs” in ball pythons always exhibit a wobble to some degree or another, though I’d guess they do (they just seem to get so much less attention than spider, so I haven’t read as much about them). Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, though.
It sounds like the bug eyes in palmetto corns may not be quite the same, as folks here are saying that there are palmettos with normal eyes. Can a palmetto corn with normal eyes still produce palmetto babies with bug eyes?
Since the bug eyes do seem to be linked to the palmetto mutation, I think it would be helpful to include an educational note about it in listings so people who may be unaware know that the morph is prone to that defect.
Yes, a Palmetto with normal eyes can still produce babies with bug eyes, as far as I am aware. If I am remembering correctly (maybe @t_h_wyman can pop in with more info), it’s the same issue in Super Lessers with bug eyes. Something to do with the pigment distribution in leucism and melanocytes in the eyes, specifically.
You are correct about spider. Every single spider morph has the wobble syndrome (whether it’s neurological or inner ear) and there is no such thing as a spider without wobble, just sometimes symptoms minor enough that a breeder a) doesn’t notice or b) intentionally ignores. As far as I’m aware champagne is the same (slightly less), I’m not sure on HGW or woma. However, given that all of those genes have had people try to “breed out” the wobble and been unsuccessful, it’s a scientifically sound assumption that they are the same in that every single animal has the wobble syndrome, just with varying degrees of severity.
Additionally the wobble can get better or (more often) worsen with age, environment, stress, etc, so a baby that seems to have minor wobble symptoms is NOT guaranteed to be an adult with minor symptoms. And an adult with minor symptoms can produce offspring with major ones.
I’m not sure the cause behind the bug eyes, but I will say I think it’s been months since I’ve seen a palmetto hatchling without them. There used to be more, but they seem to have disappeared. Even if the bug eyes don’t cause severe pain/discomfort to the animals, it’s still a notable defect folks should be aiming to lessen through responsible breeding.