How do you measure this?
Even if this is the case I haven’t been convinced of the meaningful gain.
2 Likes
Given my understanding of animal behavior and the neurochemistry of touch, their overwhelming choice of proximity alone implies meaningful gain to me. As I’ve noted, the same would really be true for other explanations than endorphins - draft, incremental heat, whatever. They still choose togetherness over the alternative.
This whole thread is full of my long-form observations and associated inferences, along with exhaustive consideration and analysis of alternate interpretations. I can’t do much more to explain how I measure it; of course it takes judgement. In simplest terms, they’re either together, positioned to maximize distance, or they’re seemingly ambivalent but separated and exploring or resting on different resources.
Did you watch the three videos that I posted above? I think interactions like those - shared curiosity, care for offspring, protection of partners in shed, deference to smaller animals, and the host of other behaviors that I’ve meticulously explored in this thread - speak volumes. If they don’t for you, we just have very different interpretations of nature.
But the fact remains that the stated harm risks associated with your interpretation just aren’t happening in my environment. My animals eat like champs, they show no external signs of stress (rather, they become less shy or strike-y upon cohab), they handle incredibly well, and they absolutely aren’t eating each other despite me giving them ample opportunity to do so.
6 Likes
But the question is do they both want to be together at the same time?
I watched them earlier and I watched them again paying attention to both snakes. I still don’t see how both of them crave contact, just one following the other. In my opinion the snake on the right in all of the videos is tolerating it. I don’t see any signs from it showing that it likes or dislikes the contact. As far as all of the interactions you mentioned I could only find the following in a short time (I don’t have the time right now to read through the entire thread).
To me this seems like the shedding snake is finding a place away from the other snakes to shed in peace.
My main point now is there’s no mutual benefit, not that there are risks (you’ve convinced me that many risks are unlikely in an ideal environment, which you seem to be very close to).
This very well could be. In my opinion every source and person is biased. I entered into the hobby learning common knowledge (which was that ball pythons can’t be cohabitated). I’m open to being proved wrong but I haven’t seen proof to change that yet.
2 Likes
Tom Crutchfield cohabitates many reptiles, including snakes(i didnt hear any thing directly relating to ball pythons in this video though)
In this video he talks a little about it. Timestamped to where he details it.
3 Likes
I have the same experience. My two definitely enjoy being together. No aggravation, not competing for food or hide. I believe there is definitely a lack of research. Everyone just wants to say no no no. Thanks for your efforts on this 
6 Likes
Interesting seeing this topic get bumped again. While I still think that not cohabitating ball pythons especially in spatially constrained rack setups is still the safest choice, I do believe they have certain social instincts.
Another example is how I cohabitate each clutch of hatchlings until they first shed. No matter how many or how small hides, how many corners, what size tub, etc. It’s always been the same for me: Every single one piles together into a tangled ball of snakes. And it seems pretty clear to me there is an instinctual choice to stay together at least for a time after hatching. I’m not sure how long they would choose this for since I separate them for assumed safety to start feeding.
This obviously changes as adults since you can observe a breeding pair choosing to share space or occupy different space. However it at least clearly shows a capacity to desire sharing space in a beneficial way at certain times.
7 Likes
I love your post! It makes me want to go out and buy a bunch of snails to add to my collection! LOL! 
Thank you for sharing!
4 Likes
I know that my example isn’t from ball pythons specifically, but from a species that often seems to be said to be even less sociable. My pair of adult female Guyana red tails have been together for the better part of a decade. From yearlings kept in a large sterilite tub to sharing a room together, they have been together for nearly their whole lives with no signs of stress such as lack of appetite or bizarre behavior. They both eat separately and have access to anything they could want, but seem to end up in close proximity to one another, usually mid section to mid section.
I think that when it comes down to it, there is so much about animals that scientists and normal people alike don’t understand because we like to think that because we think higher level than any other animal, what we decide they are capable of is law, yet under the right circumstances and with time, it seems that over and over we are proven wrong with what we believed to be true prior to the new information. I could be wrong, I could be seeing 2 animals that, according to some people are “mindless boxes of rocks” just not caring about each other’s presence whatsoever. They could also possess higher levels of thought than most people would care to accept.
We can’t read animals thoughts and know just what they are thinking, we can’t magically decide that because snake A doesn’t do behavior X, Y, or Z like a different animal would that it is inherently a less complex animal, perhaps it just sees no reason to do such things and is preoccupied with other thoughts, just as us humans are with one another. We don’t believe the same things, nor should we have to, it’s free will. I believe that snakes can be both more sociable or less sociable among a species, it’s all about individuals and the set of circumstances in which they live. Some humans like other human company, and yet, despite being labeled “socialable” some humans loathe the company of others. At the end of the day, I believe each individual is unique in it’s own way, whether it’s from the dominant life form on earth by intelligence (humans), or a life form we deem lesser because we are more intelligent (snakes).
9 Likes
@boablaster very well said. I always say that they are like people, everyone and thing is different and you can’t place them all in the same group.
8 Likes
I just wanted to emphasize this point. Just because 2 animals are together doesnt mean both are happy with the arrangement. How long do you move away from something you dont like before you settle down and just tolerate it? Just because 2 animals are together does not make it a mutually agreed upon choice.
What id be curious about is if there is any gain for the snakes, shouldnt there be any brain signals or chemical evidence they are receiving happiness through the contact?
I know somebody mentioned feeding and handling. For snakes that are shy, feeding after handling can be a problem, but for my friendlier snakes, i can handle them, send them home and feed right after, as they were not stressed by the handling. So there is a bit of leeway here depending on how the snake views handling. Some treat it as enrichment and exploration while others treat it like a near death experience.
But im sure there is real data that could be collected here other than observations to definitively prove the point, but as mentioned before, funding is an issue
6 Likes
Like a few of the previous posters with their BPs, I kept my boas with completely available resources of equal distribution across the whole environment, yet deliberately they ended up in close proximity to one another. Eventually I even decided to try and separate them as I was contemplating breeding one of them. I put a wall up in the room splitting the whole enclosure in half with the same perfect split of resources on both sides. After doing so, they had some unusual behavior like wall surfing, which isn’t something either of them did before that even when I was about to feed them. When I removed the wall, they went back to acting normally again and seemed like they were relieved or something. This could completely be looking too far into the behaviors, but it seemed bizarre that they completely flipped out over a wall, then acted normally again after the wall was removed.
I think that like people, snakes have very distinct personalities, some being more sociable than others when provided a new situation in which they can do so.
If you were to keep a person by themselves, away from others their entire life, more than likely in adulthood, if they were to meet another human, things could go very negatively. I believe that perhaps the same can apply to a snake. If you kept that same hypothetical person in a very social setting from childhood, more than likely they’d be much more amicable towards others. Yet in both situations, neither given outcome is necessarily law. Both people are unique and could have the complete opposite interactions with others. I believe snakes are unique too, and each will have a different experience in a potential social setting.
8 Likes
I had a friend who did this. About 7-8 years in he came home one day and one had eaten the other and both were dead.
3 Likes
Once again, all comes down to individuals. Could have been one was hungry and perhaps let the food mental state completely overwhelm it and decide to take a chance. I can’t speak for the experience of others, just my own. They still live peacefully and keep the same schedule day by day, closing in on a full decade around March of next year. It could very well end up the way that happened, or they could live till old age takes them without a quarrel between them.
If there were any signs of struggle or problems, I’d immediately move either of them into a new enclosure, but so far the only reactions that came of that sort of change were negative with the snakes becoming frantic and seemingly stressed about the change and not being in proximity of one another.
6 Likes
I mean, it is well known that some snakes freak out at even the slightest change in their enclosure and will go off food for months because you move a leaf. (Ok, moving a leaf is an exageration) but setting up a giant dividing wall they are completely unfamilar with and cutting their roaming space in half is a MASSIVE change. Imagine if somebody built a wall in the middle of your house. You still have access to everything, but everythinf is now half the size. Where did the wall come from, why is the wall there? Does the other half exist still? Can i get around it? Can i go under it? Etc.
Major behavioral changes are common with such a huge change to their enclosure.
7 Likes
I’m about science and creating better care for our Reptiles. I’m always studying products and care about how we keep them. how can we do better. How we can better our keeping. What animals can we and can not keep together. How they are in the wild and if we can mimic the natural habitat to the T. The answer is yes we can do that part. Can we observe them as they are in the wild Yes we can. I’m working on some funding for few science experiments with them more in-depth. With creating other enclosures to people as well. I’m constantly educating my self and others. Now to do this study we don’t need a 20x20x8 enclosure we can do this with 3 adults. With a 8x4x6 enclosure with trees and everything to mimic Benin. Is it easy to do yes once I get the funding I need for the machines I need to create my own plants tress hides water dishes I have designed. I can easily do this enclosure. Do daily updates video recorded. Yes we can do this study. I do have a GoFundMe setup if you want to donate. PM me for the link.
3 Likes
It took 3 years and hundreds of social connections, but I had my first incident. Here’s the transparent report as promised.
A few days ago I heated up a package of rats using near-boiling pot of kettle water, so they were pretty warm when I opened the plastic and were emitting a LOT of smell. I was feeding the baby dumeril’s boa that I keep in the top tub of one 32qt rack. In the tub below I keep 4 ball python clutchmates that are about a year old. Love these guys - they’re super social and incredibly fun to handle. See the attached video; they’re always flush against the front of the tub looking for attention when they see that I’m home from work. I haven’t been pushing their size (I favor occasional fasting), so they’ve been pretty comfortable with the space in the tub…but it had been about 3.5 weeks since last feeding, so I could tell they were getting really hungry from their persistence tracing the front of the tub.
While I was feeding the dumeril’s, I heard a thud and other snakey sounds in the tub below. About 45 seconds later I pulled open the lower tub to find that one sibling had latched onto another. The bitten sibling seemed moderately distressed - he had retreated into the pile of the other two snakes, with his sister loosely attached near his tail (but not violently wrapping). He actually tucked himself under his other siblings, but he wasn’t writhing…he was tense but also was just kind of chilling. Definitely a loose interpretation but it felt as if, by the time I opened the tub, they were already kind of orienting to work out of the situation…he was protected and she wasn’t wrapping him.
I reasoned that it happened from confusion - the combination of smells + movement caused one to mistake the other for food, just as they sometimes mistake me during feedings. So I grabbed some sanitizer, put a tiny drop on the mouth of the biter, and she immediately let go. I made a note to feed them sooner than later and left them be, keeping one ear open just in case something else happened (but I suspected all was well).
That’s pretty much it. I’ve been keeping closer tabs on them and just fed them tonight with no follow-on incident. I guess I just want to emphasize a few points:
-
It was a really obvious situation to interpret, and really easy to handle
-
It was a mistake that happened specifically because of a combination of hunger and a strong smell trigger, and so:
-
Occurred specifically because I was present feeding other snakes
-
Was probably preventable just by being a little more aggressive with feedings
-
-
The brother found a way to fortify himself, and seemed to choose the protection of his other siblings (really interesting)
-
I strongly suspect she would have struggled to cause any harm and let go shortly thereafter, as they usually do within a few minutes of snagging me…I didn’t wait or take pics/video b/c I saw no sense in allowing unnecessary distress when I had an immediate solution
-
I have high confidence that it won’t recur in the absence of that strong smell trigger, and I’m totally comfortable continuing to keep them together
The obvious question is whether this gives me any pause continuing to experiment with cohabs…and the answer is not really, just as taking an occasional reactive strike during feedings doesn’t make me fear handling an otherwise chill and goofy animal. I still think I have happy and well-socialized pets, and this totally fell within the bounds of behaviors that I would expect (and resolved in kind). I have so many snakes that strike out with no clear target when they smell rats in close proximity and feel the movement of a tub. I’ve noted earlier that one or two horror-story pics I’ve seen on forums show absolutely emaciated animals, and I continue to believe that the risk of an arbitrary incident (ie. absent a feeding trigger) is very low for socialized balls unless the snakes are starved.
As with all interactions between animals, subtlety and context matter. They are animals with a range of personalities and emotional states, and I try to be conscientious in the cohab choices that I make. I still separate them for feedings in almost all cases. I continue to keep breeding pairs together for extended periods when they seem to get along, and currently have a rainbow cohabitating in a terrarium with a ball python - both of whom are very chill and actively engage with each other.
Will continue to report as needed.
Vid of curious siblings:
Photo after feeding tonight:
9 Likes
I’ve got to be honest here, this seems like a recipe for incredibly stressed out animals. A 32 qt tub isn’t very big, and to be keeping 4 ball pythons in there is a lot, even if they’re young. From the biting incident to you describing them as “always flush againt the front of their tub”, this sounds like stressed out ball pythons. They don’t have enough space to fully spread out or have personal space and there’s no hides or anything they can use for security/isolation. I think cohabitation could be done well and safely with a large enclosure that had lots of space, hides, multiple hot spots and temp gradients, etc, but this isn’t it. In my opinion it’s crossed a line from an experiment on whether cohabitation works into simply cutting corners on housing and husbandry.
12 Likes
^^^
I am in full agreement with Hilary on this. Real experiments, especially those involving animals, are well designed and thought out and done in a manner that is ethical for the animals involved. Nothing about this comes across as meeting any of those conditions. It seems like something that was just slapped together with no consideration other than convenience for the keeper with the label “experiment” thrown on as justification
13 Likes
I don’t find the brother looking for protection from his siblings as interesting. I find it sad and just a matter of the following:
With no place to hide, the only place to go is hiding UNDER another snake. It’s not looking to them for protection. It’s that there is nowhere to hide.
The photo after feeding also looks to demonstrate further stress. I don’t know where the heat is located in that tub, but the three piled together are obviously alert while the fourth is settled fairly comfortably by itself. It’s still balled because again… No comfortable hides.
On top of leaving brother and sister together at an age where hormones and such can start causing further stressful issues
10 Likes
I agree here. The last time I visited this thread I saw ball pythons cohabbing in a large naturalistic enclosure with several “zones,” leaf litter, etc. That was more okay in my eyes since the animals had places to go solo while still meeting their habitat needs.
I was surprised to open the thread and see 4 ball pythons cohabbing in a 32qt tub with no hides. I am not surprised that there was an incident. Even if it was likely just a feeding response issue, an animal was still bit and there was likely stress to several animals.
I was hesitant but interested in the bioactive (or near bioactive) set up that seemed like it could work, but this crosses a big line for me personally
8 Likes