WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THE PANDA PIED PROJECT FOR 3 YEARS SO FAR AND HAVE FINALLY ACHIEVED THE NEXT STEP! WE JUST PRODUCED A SUPER BLACK PASTEL WITHOUT ANY KINKS AND WITHOUT A “DUCK BILL”!
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That’s AWESOME. Do you think this is a fluke, or do you think it reflects a possiblity for the long term viability of the project? 
I’ve read about incubating super black pastel and super cinnamon clutches at lower temps, around 86F, to reduce the chance of kinking and duck bill. I would be interested to hear if anyone has first hand experience with this or if its just a rumor.
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I personally don’t believe that could be true. I do believe going at slightly lower temperatures can produce fatter healthier babies I don’t think it’s going to fix a genetic defect. People said the same thing when they were trying to get Desert females to be able to reproduce. Saying keeping them at lower temps was going to be the key to success. If something is flawed it’s flawed, lower or higher temps won’t fix it IMO.
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People said the same thing when they were trying to get banana females
You meant desert females?
@PrestigePythons I’ve never heard that anyone had a hard time breeding banana females. Like @Frenchie I am wondering if you ment Desert females…?
Oops yes I meant Desert, thanks for the correction
Continuing the discussion from Panda pied project:
I PERSONALLY FEEL THAT LOWERING THE INCUBATION TEMPERATURES DOES HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE INCUBATION AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE EMBRYO. I INCUBATED THESE AT 87 DEGREES IN THE INCUBATOR USING A VIVARIUM 300 THERMOSTAT CONTROLLER AND INSIDE THE TUBS COVERED IN PLASTIC WRAP, ON LIGHT DIFFUSERS ON TOP OF VERMICULITE IT WAS 86 DEGREES. THE SUPER BLACK PASTEL 100% HET PIED CAME OUT WITHOUT ANY DUCK BILL OR KINKS AND APPEARS TO BE HEALTHY AT THIS TIME. 4 DAYS LATER.
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Continuing the discussion from Panda pied project:
WHETHER IT IS OR NOT I CAN’T SAY OR DO I KNOW FOR SURE. ALL I KNOW IS THIS IS WHAT WE DID AND THIS WAS OUR RESULT.
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I feel it’s something that really has to be proved more extensively, but could play a contributing factor. I personally have done 2 cinnamon x cinnamon pairings in the past hoping to hit a banana super cinnamon. Same pairing two seasons running with same incubation method of vermiculite and egg crate. First year I incubated at 89f and the super cinnamon in that clutch was a train wreck. Second year I incubated at 87f and the banana super cinnamon from that was perfect. Only two pairings but it’s first hand experience of it, hope it helps add to the data and discussion.
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I knew a guy who bred caramels and he said that lower incubation temps helped him avoid kinking issues. I told him I had plans to breed pandas in the future and he said to just lower the temps a degre or two. Honestly, I’m doing that for all my clutches. I’m in no hurry and want them to have plenty of time to develop.
I’m hoping for a black pastel pied this year, so if I’m lucky maybe I’ll get the chance to test that out next year.
I personally don’t think lower temps prevents kinks or duck bill. We had a clutch incubated at 86-87 and one of the three panda was terrible.
It’s very hard to test unless you have many clutches from the same two parents but incubate at different temps each time.
So what line of Black Pastel was this? I have produced 8-Balls with Ian G line and they came out deformed - one WAY worse than its sibling. Another breeder that I see at my local show produced an all-white Panda from Barnhart line and it hatched kinked too.
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AFTER THE REST OF THE CLUTCH HATCHED, WE NOTICED THAT ONE WAS A PASTEL! SO WITH THAT BEING SAID THE MALE HAS TO BE A BLACK PEWTER PIED! AND SINCE I WAS TOLD BY THE PERSON THAT SOLD ME THAT ANIMAL THAT IT WAS A BLACK PASTEL PIED>>> I NOW HAVE DOUBTS OF THE LINE THEY CLAIMED IT TO BE. I DO KNOW THAT THE FEMALE BLACK PASTEL WAS FROM THE LIESEN LINE. I WILL NOT DISCLOSE OUT OF RESPECT TO BOTH RESPECTED ORIGINATORS WHAT LINE IT WAS CLAIMED TO BE. JUST SOMETHING THAT CAME UP AFTER BEING PROVEN OUT. WE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK WITH THE PROJECT AND SEE IF WE CAN DETERMINE WHAT LINE IT IS, (IF AT ALL POSSIBLE).
AFTER THE REST OF THE CLUTCH HATCHED, WE NOTICED THAT ONE WAS A PASTEL! SO WITH THAT BEING SAID THE MALE HAS TO BE A BLACK PEWTER PIED! AND SINCE I WAS TOLD BY THE PERSON THAT SOLD ME THAT ANIMAL THAT IT WAS A BLACK PASTEL PIED>>> I NOW HAVE DOUBTS OF THE LINE THEY CLAIMED IT TO BE. I DO KNOW THAT THE FEMALE BLACK PASTEL WAS FROM THE LIESEN LINE. I WILL NOT DISCLOSE OUT OF RESPECT TO BOTH RESPECTED ORIGINATORS WHAT LINE IT WAS CLAIMED TO BE. JUST SOMETHING THAT CAME UP AFTER BEING PROVEN OUT. WE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK WITH THE PROJECT AND SEE IF WE CAN DETERMINE WHAT LINE IT IS, (IF AT ALL POSSIBLE).
@off_the_hook_reptiles Awesome, glad to to hear. I just hatched some Black Pastel Albino 100% Het Pieds babies. Super excited about the panda pied project.
wE JUST RECENTLY PURCHASED 1.1 BLACK PASTEL PIEDS FROM 2 DIFFERENT BREEDERS. THE MALE IS AN ADULT, WHILE THE FEMALE IS STILL JUST SHY OF 500 GRAMS. WE ALSO PURCHASED AN 8 BALL HET PIED SO THAT ONE WILL BE ROTATED INTO THE PROJECT WITH ANOTHER BLACK PASTEL HET PIED TO SEE IF WE CAN FURTHER THE RESEARCH AND COME UP WITH DEFINITIVE ANSWERS. IT HAS BEEN WIDELY ACCEPTED THAT THE ODDS ARE AGAINST US AND THAT IT IS A GENETIC DEFORMITY THAT MOST OFFSPRING ARE HATCHED WITH EITHER KINKS OR DUCKBILLS. HOWEVER THERE ARE BREEDERS OUT THERE SUCH AS: SRS AND ROCCO PAAS THAT HAVE PRODUCED NUMEROUS ANIMALS THAT ARE NOT DEFORMED! THAT HAVE “NO KINKS” OR DUCKBILLS! IT MAY BE CONTRIBUTED TO THE QUALITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL BLOODLINE, ie. (Ian G; BARNHART; LIESEN) ECT… AND IT MAY BE ALSO THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING ADDITIONAL GENETICS IN THE DNA OF THE ANIMALS. AFTER ALL NO ONE HAS EVER COMPILED A COMPLETE DNA GENOTYPE FOR THE BALL PYTHON AND AS SUCH WE DO NOT KNOW JUST HOW EACH CHROMOSOME IS INVOLVED. OR JUST HOW THEY INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER. ONLY WITH CONTINUED TRIAL AND ERROR SUCCESS AND FAILURES WILL WE EVER ARRIVE AT THE FINAL TRUTHS. WITH THAT, ALL I CAN SAY IS TO THOSE WILLING TO TRY I WISH YOU LUCK AND SUCCESS AND BY ALL MEANS NEVER GIVE UP! BUT AS A SUGGESTION, I WOULD SAY ONLY USE THE HIGHEST QUALITY YOU CAN AND TRY TO KEEP THE BLOODLINES CLEAN. GOOD LUCK IN YOUR ENDEAVORS!
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This girl was a lucky find for $60. She’s about 1100 grams now. She’s a black pastel but kinda looks like ?Barnhart? to me based on pictures I’ve been seeing. Anyone have any thoughts?
Thank you!
We also have two bp pieds from two separate breeders on here. The boy is growing so fast and I bet would eat himself to death if he got the chance and the girl is just super shy and pretty around 550 grams now. She’s actually black pewter pied. 
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Congrats! A very pretty snake!
One day if you keep my info maybe we can work out a deal to breed this girl to my panda 3 black patch male!
I would only need to know that this snakes parents etc were not related and the lines were never in-bred
You sure look like you are on your way to healthy Pandas in the future! Good Luck!